Change is Coming to Tennis with Jonathan Overend

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 221, of Control the Controllables. And we're bringing to you a podcast shot with Jonathan Overend. And I had a conversation with Jonathan a few weeks ago. And we wanted to pull this little part of the conversation out. We didn't release it a couple of weeks ago, because we felt that this was an episode in itself. You know, there's the hot topic right now, the disruption in tennis, whether you like it or not, it's happening, you know, we're going to be talking about it in our first ever live show in London, on April, the 19th. If you haven't got your tickets, make sure you go to the show notes. Because we want to see as many of you there as possible, whether that is in person, or online. And since this conversation, many things have unfolded in the world of tennis, but I'm going to save that for the end of the show. Firstly, I want you to hear Jonathan overend take is this new elite tour that the Grand Slams are proposing going to be good for tennis, because we'll be talking all about that in our live show. What's going to happen in the world of doubles, Saudi Arabia, is that good for tennis, and where's the WTA finals going to go? You know, we discussed many of these points, Jonathan had some real strong opinions, rightly so. And I think you'll love them. And and I'll pick back up with you at the end. To fill you all, in any of you tennis enthusiasts that want to hear the latest that's happening in the world of tennis. I'm gonna pass you over to Jonathan Overend. You told me a few years ago that you are not one to stop the movement of time. And the movement of time in the tennis industry, is obviously we've had Patrick Mouratoglou has tried the UTS tour, there's been various ways of almost trying to copy the 100 we take cricket crickets very much move with the times it's got its classical test match. But it then has it's One Day International, it's 20 20. And now even branded as the Hundred. We've got darts that's very much moved with the times it's found a way of making darts very marketable and coming to our TV and, and what is going on behind the scenes. And ultimately, it's been talked about so we can talk about it, at least to what we know, is that there is the Grand Slams now coming together, and the Grand Slams are looking to bring their own tour out. The cynics will say it is driven purely by finance, the spin the positive spin will be about playing less weeks, you know, bringing the best players together on this tour that will be 96 players is what I'm hearing, we're going to be potentially losing doubles, which is obviously a dagger to my heart, and to many tennis enthusiasts. But talk to me you're not one to stop the movement of time. I mean,

Jonathan Overend  03:17

so difficult, isn't it? It's so difficult, because of what I talked about earlier about to make the sort of decisions I think tennis needs to make to get them all right. I think we need to suspend the tours for a couple of years. You know, I'm talking flippantly. I don't I don't I'm not saying that has to be done. But I'm saying in order to give us all the time space, the input as well, you know, tennis is a very sort of in crowd, isn't it in a way, we don't often take a huge amount of advice externally from people who may be a just casual tennis observers, but have a lot of experience in other areas, maybe other sports, other businesses, other ways of the entertainment industry. And I think all of that is required, because I think we have to take everybody's opinions into account. If for example, if we're going to phase out doubles, have we really taken into account people like yourself, and the players whose living is dependent on on doubles? My My guess would be probably not if we're going to create an elite tour, I mean, you mentioned 96. You know, I read, there are eight players off to Saudi Arabia for an event in October. If that's going to happen, it's going to be an entertainment spectacle. Of course it is because Nadal is going to play Sinner and Alcaraz is going to play Djokovic And Rune is going to play Medvedev and you know someone's going to meet in the final it is going to be great. Of course it is. But is that the future? If so, what happens to all the other hundreds of players who are trying to play professionally on the tour if you've got this closed shop at the very top of the game, and then that's even before you've even touched on? You know Your favorite question five sets, or three? Or what do we do about the shot clock, or anything like that if there's so many massive decisions, and I think the way I look at it is if if there wasn't like an executive who someone who had executive power over the sport of tennis, one person, they would have to be probably the bravest executive in the history of sport to make these big decisions, because it would impact on the game we love for the rest of time, or until someone reverses all the changes. And we go back, you know, anyone who tinkers with the scoring system? You know, good luck, but it's on you. And I would say the same about the structure of the tours, because there's a large part of me that thinks, sure, we need to have some sort of elite showcase for the very, very best this sport offers. Because it's it's an unbelievable level at the moment. And just imagine if we could see those sorts of battles week in week out.

Daniel Kiernan  06:03

Is that not happening already? So what I'm hearing is four grand slams, 13, 1000 events, believe we're at 10, 1000 events right now. And the top players are playing the 1000 events. So we are we are we not getting that already with within the product that we have. And that's the bit that I guess for you to you as a broadcaster who's bringing this alive. Is the current structure not bringing these these showcases of the top talents together?

Jonathan Overend  06:36

No, I think it is I'm not I'm not arguing one way or another Dan, I'm, I'm looking at the the argument in favor of the more elite closed shop, if you like, and I'm saying okay, well, Formula One kind of does it you've got like your, your 16, top drivers, and everyone else sort of works for their career towards getting into that elite. But that's where you've got to bring nuance into the conversation, haven't you, tennis is a very, very different sport, in it starts in the clubs and on the parks and in the schools, and you want to have that pathway of progress, whereby everybody has an opportunity. And to me the tours still provide that, you know, going going right down down the rankings. And it's very defined, isn't it that the potential route through Now not everyone can make it but there is there is a goal there, that if you set your mind to it, and you invest in your own career, and you work damn hard, maybe one day that can be you know, and that's that's what I've always loved about tennis and I would be very sad for that to for that to come to an end. I don't I don't think it will, because I don't think anyone will be brave enough to really kind of wash it completely. But I think there will be changes.

Daniel Kiernan  07:51

I think change is okay, Yeah, and I think change is okay. I mean, we saw with LIV Golf, LIV Golf came out and the PGA Tour found 500 million just hanging around somewhere. You know, so when we have when we have monopolies, it's it's never good in any situation. So I think I think having challenge of change and having potential pain, that creates change, I certainly think innovation can come out, you know, but I, I tend to be with you. And all I was thinking when you said about the two year window, is what an opportunity we missed with the pandemic. You know, if there was ever a time for this sort of thing to really blossom, and people to get their heads together truly get their heads together. That seems to have been a big opportunity that we've missed within the industry. Yeah,

Jonathan Overend  08:44

that's a really good point. Really good point coming could tennis have come together to sort of pay the wages, if you like of everyone who relies on the tennis machine over the course of that time. I don't know, again, it would have needed someone with a very large business acumen to bring all that bring all that together in a short space of time. I think the LIV Golf example is interesting, but I do see that as a separate debate, because obviously the LIV Golf money is Saudi Arabia money and tennis is on its way to Saudi Arabia. Again, choice of language here. I almost said to myself, rightly or wrongly, what a what a curious expression that is, by the way, rightly or wrongly, no wrongly, no would have been, rightly or wrongly, if that person committed a crime. Wrongly!

Daniel Kiernan  09:33

What is your take on the Saudis?

Jonathan Overend  09:37

To just write a blank check and expect that to wash out history or human rights abuses or everyday behavior which is ingrained in that particular culture. It confuses me when people go to Saudi or to Qatar or wherever it might be and say, well, that's their culture and we're we're visitors and will sort of abide by their culture. I mean, really, really well. Are we happy with that? Really happy with that, that's ridiculous. You know a nation that that executes its own citizens, a nation which prevents homosexual relationships a nation which until recently didn't even allow women to drive. I suppose it becomes a big issue if if the regular tour starts going there every year, which, you know, by the sounds of things is going to happen, is going to happen. The point, the point I'm making is I think sport needs to do a better job of just being more worldly wise, just being alive to the things that are going on in our planet and not not seeing ourselves as just because we're sport. We're in some way immune to all of that. Oh, no one wants to do politics. No one wants to talk about this. We're just here to play sport. It's just such a meaningless response. I don't I don't get it. It's the same with climate change. It's like you talk to athletes, do you want to do you want to speak up about the future of your sport, which is completely dependent on the future of our planet? Oh, no, I don't don't get involved in politics, or the future. I'm not asking who you're voting for the next election? I'm asking do you do you have an opinion about whether this sport will still be in existence in 20 years time, because the way we're going? A sport like tennis is going to be the most impacted, by the way our climate is changing the last seven years in the history of the planet have been the last seven have been the hottest seven years. Okay. So there's no, there's no, there's no denying this, the science is telling us where we're going draw the graph, imagine where we're going. So who's concerned about this, who's concerned about the human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, I don't see enough people in sport willing to talk about these things, and just make it part of the conversation. And it doesn't mean necessarily, I mean, I suppose you have to take a stance in the sense of, you'd have to pull out of a tournament, or you'd have to sort of not go in and work. But I just think we don't have to be quite so hard line, we can ask for people's opinions, which can be based on facts and based on education. And I don't I don't see enough of it. I don't see enough people saying this doesn't feel comfortable. This doesn't feel right. And until something changes, my view won't won't alter on that.

Daniel Kiernan  12:36

And ironically, on the on the potential new tour, Jonathan, my understanding and again, this is this is my my understanding that this is not fact. Is that that tour and the idea of that tour was actually born from the period when the ATP and WTA withdrew the points from Wimbledon when the Russians and Bella Russians weren't able to play. So it was a little bit of a power thing of like, what because actually, the tennis world at that time. And certainly the tennis players, there was a lot more support for the Russians playing than not playing that time, certainly behind the scenes. And then the Grand Slams have come together and gone. Well. Hold on. Screw this. Who are you to be pushing us around? Were the powerhouses here were the ones that are demanding $250 a ticket Labor Day weekend at US Open? We're the ones that have got these multi air TV deals that are bringing, bringing eyeballs to the sport. Actually, no, we need to do something about that. You know, so there's that almost, I guess the point I'm making is, political situations are almost being used and jockeyed for to position the sport and the landscape of the sport, from a commercial side of things, you know, but what is the sport should be doing to make a stance within within within the political situations that are going on around the world? And I guess those two things don't necessarily always marry.

Jonathan Overend  14:23

No. And that's that needs strong leadership, but it also needs independence. And I suppose it goes back a bit to what I was saying about tennis being quite a closed shop, really, in terms of the people making the big decisions. And I think the more voices that we can get into these conversations, the better the more breadth of experience from other forms of entertainment industry, from other sports from other businesses. It's invaluable. It really is. And, you know, I look at some of the big decisions that are made and I just sort of roll my eyeballs and just think I can't believe that again. I can't believe that. I mean, US Open not having a wheelchair tournament this year. It's just that's crazy. I mean, really, really? And I mean, you hear the justification and you go, sure I get that. I get that Paralympics. I get that, you know, fan week I get that. Not enough courts to play on. I get that. But really, absolutely. And I feel desperately sorry for those players who won't get the chance to compete at Flushing Meadows this year. It's just, it's just all wrong. And you're telling me that that wouldn't happen? If if it was like the able bodied events? They would they would find a way, you know, I feel for you in the doubles. community, because who knows where, where doubles is going? And, you know, that's, that's a worry. And again, you know, where's the input? And who's making the decisions? And what is it? What is it based upon?

Daniel Kiernan  15:54

Yeah, and I think on that one for me, Jonathan, and again, I can, I can say I'm a tennis coach, I have a tennis academy. There's many forms of tennis, right? The singles, there's doubles, there's, there's able bodied, there's disabled as wheelchair, there's blind, there's deaf, there's many, many forms of playing the sport is so we'll be we'll be fine in whichever direction they go. But certainly, when I look at it, then I go. And I guess I look at this from two situations, you've got your, you've got your TV viewership. And I guess there's only so much tennis you can watch on TV. So you know, as the as the Grand Slams go on the last stage of of the grand slams, there's plenty to watch, you know, on TV. If you are a tennis enthusiast, as 1.1 million people were at Melbourne Park, throughout the Australian Open, and I don't know the exact figures, us all, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't more than that. Because it was like crazy making your way through Flushing Meadows. Back in September. The most fulfilling way to go to a tennis tournament for a tennis enthusiast is to have a ground pass. And to be able to walk the grounds and maybe you get a chance. I remember and I don't know if this happens anymore. I remember my first experience at Wimbledon, and it was magical. I had a ground pass. But at the end of the day, they used to put the tickets in the in the little ticket slot as resale. Yeah. And then we got I remember getting a chance to walk on Centre Court, at seven or eight and it was just this most spectacular magical day. But if you were there, Calvin Betton made this point last week, he walked onto the grounds at Melbourne Park on the middle Saturday. And there was three or four show courts that had all of the singles matches. So all able bodied singles matches were ticketed courts, you then had three doubles three or four doubles matches that were being played maybe a little bit more, then you have the juniors and I'm not even sure the wheelchair event had started by then. So really, for your ground pass, all you're getting in terms of content is Junior Tennis. So, so if you remove doubles, mixed doubles, you know that it's played to a very entertaining playing to a very high level. Where is your content coming from? And again, sorry, to those that if you're listening to this episode, as you have the other episodes because I've made this point before but like Rome, the never ending tournament in Rome last year, it was like when's this tournament going to end? And it was like, there's no matches to watch. There was nothing to watch. It's just these empty courts and you're walking around. And, you know, people have made someone Someone was saying on the on the show a year ago around the Rome time, you should actually run a 250 event in the second week of these Master's 1000 events, so that you're giving people more content to watch, you know, and that might be slightly different from a TV viewership point of view, to a ticket sale point of view. But we have to we have to give people and it's Indian Wells that was Indian Wells, it was every single court was completely packed singles, doubles didn't matter. It was completely packed for three, four or five days, you know, and that is the beauty of our sport. And if we make this too elitist, too exclusive, it might work for TV, if we go to Saudi and forget that for a minute of just we talking about nobody watches in Saudi Arabia in the stadiums, you know, nobody's there. It might be people might watch Alcaraz playing against expanding in stock with a chunk TV but no one's there watching, watching in person. And I just think we have to be really, really careful what we wish for that we're going to become a sport that is about TV viewership, rather than the magic of going to a tennis tournament and having various content and and top top quality to watch. And and that would be my my biggest concern with it when I'm objectively looking at the doubles setup. And I would say a doubles player has the same value as a singles player ranked 30 or 40. In the world, if we're being brutally honest, nobody's buying the ticket to go to, to Roland Garros to watch a 40 in the world singles player, you know, the top singles names are selling it. And then you've got people that want to go and be entertained by different forms of tennis. And I think doubles is a massive, massive part of that. And obviously, secondly, on that they can market it a hell of a lot better as well.

Jonathan Overend  20:41

Yeah, I mean, loads of interesting points there. And I think that that gets to the heart of my point about needing to take on board, so many different sectors of opinions, because we can have brainstorms like this couldn't we with with loads of people in the same room, we could have a whole series of them and then present a dossier to the tennis authorities and say, right, here's a really wide spectrum of opinions about how things would get. I suppose the counter argument would be if you looked at the ATP doubles top, well, I think it's probably top 20 Isn't everyone in their 30s? And then the world number one is in well into his 40s. So is that is that sustainable? How does that change?

Daniel Kiernan  21:22

It's? Well, I think it depends what you're looking at, I mean, the quality, the quality of the doubles play, you stick to singles players on a court against the top 20 doubles players, and they will beat them at doubles. You know, that's been proven time and time and time again, it doesn't mean that there's not going to be the odd time, it doesn't happen. But it's been proven time and time again. And I think my counter to that counter, is, let's take again, again, going into cricket, there's different skill sets and the different forms of the sport, you know, someone who's the best 20 20 player in the world might not make the Test match team but they're not, it's not viewed as a lower skill set. It's different. So the skill set on the doubles court, it's different, your ability to be a teammate, your you know, your ability to bring energy to the team to be a tactician on the court, in a doubles sense, your ability to find angles, your variations, your lobs you, you know that there is different your bravery at the net. There's different skill sets, and why can't we have different forms of the game that we celebrate? You know, what, what is this need, for us to? It's already and I've done studies on this, it's already 0.000000045% of people that play tennis, according to play tennis more than two times a week according to the ITF statistics that make a living from playing tennis. So it's it's already almost impossible to be making a living from tennis. And I just think there's space, you know, we'll jump into the Sky deal in a minute. Multicourt, you know, there needs to be content on multicore viewership as well. You know, there's space for a lot of tenants, we need a lot of tenants. Second weeks, you're gonna see it second weeks of the 1000 events. There's hardly any matches. There's hardly any matches left. And

Jonathan Overend  23:28

I've I've been I've been caught side in Indian Wells, for example, watching watching doubles. I think Andy was playing I think he might even playing. It might even have been an all British match a few years ago. You know, Andy and Jamie against Ross and Colin, I think I think it may well have been and it got an incredible crowd. And it was just a fantastic atmosphere. I think. I think again, I think you're right, and a lot of what you're saying. I've read criticism of the doubles prize money going up this year at some tournaments and you know, some of the singles prize money coming coming down proportionately. And to me that that is a way isn't it of getting more singles players who may be a giving up their quest to become a top 10 singles player to maybe look at doubles and say, Okay, there's a bit more money in this now maybe this is the route that I need to take because what it says to me the fact that Joe Salisbury is the youngest in the top 10 by some considerable distance by the way at 31 That that's telling me that the younger players just don't have an entry point they're either a they're not interested they don't have the desire or be it's it's a bit of a closed shop and the top guys have got it sewn up and they they can't get a look in so I think if we give people that opportunity, like anything in life, give people the opportunity. And there will be people out there who will take it.

Daniel Kiernan  24:52

Yeah, well it's different Jonathan actually, in women's and men's so women's you will get a lot more of the traditional singles was playing doubles. And I think that's probably certainly in Grand Slams, that's linked to the three set five set thing. You know, Jess Pegula, pretty much played every doubles event last year, as well. Number three, she played the mixed doubles in many of the events. So you will have differences across the tour. But if I just take the men's, and it goes back to what you're saying, We're quite fixed mindset in our industry. And the money is so good as a top 50 singles player, top 80 singles player to be honest, they can't be arsed to play doubles. Why would they? Because it's like, well, I'm already making I'm already making millions. But you do get the odd one a Rublev I believe played maybe 14 events 15 events last year, you know, and won one masters 1000 on the clay courts in Madrid, but then didn't have a whole lot of success apart from that. But I do think it's exciting to bring that element in. But I would put it down the prize money, marketing. And but I think there's just space for us to make more stars in our game, not less stars would be my final point,

Jonathan Overend  26:04

We covered the Joe Salisbury and Rajeev Ram winning in New York for the third time in a row. And they were they were among my favorite matches of the whole fortnight. In his last those last two matches, in particular Rajeev and the sushi and Joe playing brilliantly fantastic. And then you know, your your team to win the mixed we did that live on on Sky. And these are these are matches that we showed live on Sky Sports, from the US Open with commentary, you know, with with the full court feed, it was good, it was great exposure. And this is where it's strategically, the sport in my mind still doesn't know what it's doing. It still can't make up its mind, whether it really wants doubles, or whether actually it's it's a mild inconvenience, and we'd be better off working towards a future where it doesn't exist. i i You know, I'm not going to put myself in the shoes of that exec, but I wish they'd sort of commit one way or another almost Well, you know, I wish that they would persist with doubles for all the reasons that you've said. And I think the prize money thing is really interesting thing because if you incentivize people and and say give them that opportunity, I take the point about if you're 75 in the world, you're making a good living anyway so why should you ditching singles for double that take that point, but there's so many players out there aren't they? And it doesn't make any sense to me that everyone in the elite should be well into their 30s If not now in their 40s and world number one congratulations Rohan Bopanna the way won a phenomenal achievement that is, you know, to win out there and become world number one, but it'd be lovely to get some some younger blood playing the sport on a regular basis.

Daniel Kiernan  27:37

So what what Jonathan's obviously saying is no comeback for me. New Blood. Maybe aged 44 Rohan Bopanna inspired me. And Jonathan's just put that well and truly back in the garbage bin. But as as always, Jonathan overand legend, his biggest fan, love that he's now back on our screens with Sky Sports tennis. But as I said at the start, I said I would give you a little update the world into the world of tennis. And we will certainly be delving into this and so much more. April the 19th 7pm in London, if you don't have your ticket yet get your ticket in person, or online. And what's been happening? Well WTA finals is moving to Saudi Arabia, it's been announced now came out this week, three years been agreed. Not everyone's going to be happy the prize money and money talks. As we know in all sport, the prize money's going up, I believe it's 15.6 million prize money fund that the WTA have taken on board. There's been a big announcement by the ATP about the doubles that all of a sudden that we have talked forever. And then just a last minute announcement has happened for Madrid, which is coming up in a couple of weeks, where the doubles won't actually start until the second week on the Tuesday. And it will go through until the Saturday is going to be faster Change Overs are not going to be sitting down I'm with that doesn't need to be a big sit down every time. 15 seconds in between points. If that point is less than four shots, sounds a bit complex to me. I know in the world of doubles, when you are strategizing and you are talking to your opponent, that 15 seconds will certainly test some, the umpires are going to have to be counting shots now. So let's see how that works. It seems like we're living in a singles world. You know, they now want to open up 16 spots of the 32 teams to players that are singles players. And I had a little quick count up actually, on Friday I had a look at it and there was 10 or 11 pairs in Indian Wells that were singles players. Now, Indian Wells as Monte Carlo is known as a place where a lot of singles players sign up, they want to get a match or two, on a new surface going in to those events that are coming up. In Miami, there was only five pairs. Now, we know already singles players are looking to get away as soon as they lose. There's lots of withdrawals that are happening. Do they want to hang around till the second week, Tuesday, I guess we're gonna, I guess we're gonna find out. You know, there's lots of questions that need to be answered. And then lastly, a one that I would absolutely get behind free movement of the fans during the match. Now, again, at least there is something that's starting to move on the doubles side, we will look into that more on April the 19th. But as ever, just market these players, there's enough space to have more stars in our game, get off your backside, stop trying to hold onto doubles and not actually do something about it. So at least there's a little step forward. Then the other big news, we don't know if it's true. But our understanding is that the ATP and WTA have gone into some form of partnership with the Piaf with Saudi Arabia, as everyone was discussing, at the Australian Open about the new elite to the Grand Slams aligning, we're gonna go in this direction. Mr. Gao danzi went off to Saudi Arabia and had a meeting and has come back and Indian Wells in a big meeting, there's proposed that he has 1 billion for the ATP and 1 billion for the WTA. So that makes this conversation even more exciting, even more important, but as I said, at the start, disruption is happening. We just don't know how it's happening. Is it happening externally? Or is it happening internally? It seems like internally, but it seems like there's a lot of shuffling around a lot of pushing to see who's going to be at the at the top table right now. And what that means for tennis, we do not know yet. What does that mean for tennis at the very elite level? I think it means that people are going to get richer. What does that mean? For those that aren't in the top 100 in the world that aren't the singles players that are trying on the ITF tour, that are playing ITF juniors that are working in academies that are working in clubs. Nobody's talking about that. And these are all the things that we are going to try and unpack for you. In our live show in London, April the 19th 7pm. And join us now on that night we can announce we have Gaby Dabrowski the 2023 US Open women's doubles champion. She's also on the WTA Council. So she comes with a wealth of knowledge on this subject. We've got John Morris, the super agent for many years of Nick Kyrgios. But now Andre Rublev, Dasha Kasatkina Elina Svitolina. Borna Coric, you know, he's in there, he's in those conversations. And again, he's going to bring a different perspective. And then we've got Calvin Betton and a big shout out to Calvin Betton because his player Henry Patten has teamed up with Harry Heliovaara this week and they've just won their first event together in Marrakech, the ATP 250 event. And anyone that's ever spoke to Calvin about tennis. It's like the Piers Morgan of tennis, so you're gonna get lots from him. And then Freddy Neilson 2012, men's doubles Wimbledon champion, now working not at the grassroots level per se, but working in a federation working with top juniors working with up and coming players and also as the Danish Davis Cup captain, so you will have your chance to speak to them live, ask your questions, if you're there in person, if you're online, also, you will have access to them and ask those questions. It's a fantastic opportunity for you to get fully up to speed with what is happening in the world of tennis, and also a fantastic opportunity for you to meet us. You know, have a have a have a beer with us have a bit of a chat about tennis. It'll be a fantastic evening. Looking forward to seeing so many of you there. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan, we are Control the Controllables