#197: Nigel Sears - Coaching the best WTA Players in the world

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 197 of Control the Controllables. And what a great guest we've got for you today. A tennis coach who has coached eight top 10 players on the WTA. The started off his coming on to our TV when he was coaching Amanda Coetzer back in the day who had a career high of number three. And then most recently, we saw him sitting in the box as he was coaching Emma Raducanu, who, as she made her run at Wimbledon a couple of years ago. He's also the father-in-law of Sir Andy Murray, who is married his daughter Kim Sears, and Nigel has contributed massively to British tennis over the years but also to women's tennis in general, as he's coached so many players at that level so an amazing person to speak to loads of great learnings as always loads of fantastic stories. And I'm sure you're all going to love it. So sit back and enjoy Nigel Sears. So Nigel Sears a big welcome to Control the Controllables How you doing?

Nigel Sears  01:18

Hello, good afternoon. Nice to be here.

Daniel Kiernan  01:22

It's an enthusiastic start Nigel you know we've got to we've got to get the listeners attention.

Nigel Sears  01:30

Phone you got the right voice for it.

Daniel Kiernan  01:32

And if we now that we've got their attention, I have to start with Wimbledon before we move into your story, because we're only a couple of days after a Wimbledon final weekend which, we'll get to the men's final in a minute because we can't not speak about that because that was incredible. But almost Ons Jabeur three out of five Grand Slam finals now played the matches if she had the whole continent a whole culture on her shoulders. I know that the you know both girls pretty well. What was what was your take on that final? Did you see that coming?

Nigel Sears  02:12

Well no I put Ons as slight favorite actually has a lot of other people did going into it. Even though Vondrousova had beaten twice before this year, which is relevant. And of course, she is, Marketa is a very gifted player got great hands as Ons does. And Marketahas made the final of a slam before so she she knows what being in a Slam final is like she was in the French Open final. She lost that one. She's a very laid back girl, she would have been absolutely delighted with the two weeks she'd had. Anyway, I watched her play a second round match against Kudermetova. Very tough draw. And she played a very smart match used the block extremely Well with the great hands that she has. And going into the final I thought it would be an awkward match for Ons. But I still put Ons as favorite but as the match unfolded, it was clear just how much Ons wanted it. Wanted it probably too much to become the first Arabic female to to win the title. And you know, all player so just felt she wanted it so much it she was unable she had real problems with the backhand got really tight on her backhand made a stack of unforced errors there. And Vondrousova's good enough to capitalize. That's what she did. You know, I mean, she was just very, very good. She was on her game but took things in stride. And Ons, despite a good start, just faltered badly at the final hurdle, unfortunately for her.

Daniel Kiernan  03:48

And Nigel, I want to come back to the point you're making that we'll come back to it later in the conversation because you talk about those two players and you talk about their hands their ability to to neutralize and soak up pace, the ability to change, which is maybe something that the stereotypical person in the women's game wouldn't understand. You know, I think, you know, we go back 10 years it was like everyone has to play a certain way. So I want to come back to that because and remember the Wimbledon final because those skills were on display and seem to be on display more and more within the women's game, but they were certainly on display in the men's final in abundance. And how special is Mr. Alcaraz?

Nigel Sears  04:36

He's got everything complete package. So explosive, dynamic power, lightning, fast, incredible range of shots, he improvises he can generate huge power himself is extremely powerful and strong and has a big serve and particularly impressive was the caliber of his second serve. I mean, he was hitting serves at 125 miles an hour. And, you know, he just has that extra bit of power when he wants to. And lethal forehand, I mean, just electric pace on the forehand, but his shot choices and just demonstrating again how effective the drop shot is when played with that kind of feel, I mean, unreal drop shots. And you got to remember you're playing against one of the all time greats playing against a hot favorite on the day playing against somebody who had set point two sets to love up. Things may have been different if he hadn't missed the backhand on the set point. And he very rarely misses Easy backhands. But Alcaraz is still there, you got to remember he lost the first set 6-1 he was completely hammered in the first set, and he comes back, he wins tight second set. And then he goes from strength to strength. And he had to convince himself that he could do this in a Grand Slam final against Djokovic. And what a job. He did it was quite amazing

Daniel Kiernan  06:00

How he served that out as well.

Nigel Sears  06:02

Yeah, magnificent. I mean, he's got a big serve and he uses the body serve so well, but he hits his spot, he gets pace and swing on the wide serve in the deuce court. He's got out and out power and wide in the backhand court. So I mean, he's got so many weapons, and he's so inventive, and so imaginative in the way he plays along with power and lightning speed. So I mean, like, how can you top that? I mean somebody will, one day, someone's gonna do it to him. But I mean, what will it be somebody who's seven foot tall, who can do all the same things.

Daniel Kiernan  06:37

But the bit I'd like to pick up on Nige and pick your brain on this is if we talk about Jabeur and how she mentally approached that final. Granted, we can't imagine the weight that she was carrying. And then you look at how Alcaraz seems to just embrace every challenge that comes his way, he almost seems to flip it mentally. You know, and rather than saying, I'm playing the greatest player of all time, on his court that he's not lost on his since 2013. Shit, how am I going to get through this? It's almost like, Bring it on, you know, bring the challenges, bring the difficulties bring the emotions, you know, he just seems to embrace it with such a freshness. Maybe it's his age? I don't know. But how do you teach that? Is that? Is that something you can teach? Or is that just something that every now and then generationally someone comes through, and they just get it?

07:40

Well, in his case, he came through and his graph was just like that it was almost. And so he was outstanding, absolutely outstanding as a young player. And his progress has been so rapid, slightly different with Ons. She's been doing this longer. She didn't get immediately to the top of the game. People say she had ability and so on and his talented player, but it's only in the last couple of years Ons has really played at the top level. Whereas algorithm has seemingly dominated at every stage he's been at. So I mean, it's slightly, you know, it's not a balanced equation that really is not isn't slightly different. But you know, I think, yes, something genetic there. That is very, very special I mean, Ons is a wonderful player too. But I mean, this guy is out of this world. I mean, this world,

Daniel Kiernan  08:37

would you would you jump out of the women's game if the Alcaraz gig came up?

Nigel Sears  08:44

No, well, Andy's still playing I made in on the men's tour, while Andy was still planning. Could you imagine sitting in the opposite coaching box?

Daniel Kiernan  08:55

Tony, Tony, Nadal's done it you know,

Nigel Sears  08:59

I don't agree with it. I don't agree with it. I don't I wouldn't do it. I just couldn't do that. I just couldn't. I said I'd never take a job on the men's tour. You know, and while he's still playing, and he's still playing so so

Daniel Kiernan  09:15

if so the question is Nige if Alcaraz did ask you would you try and persuade Andy to quit?

Nigel Sears  09:23

Yeah. I mean, yeah, no, I would certainly that's not going to happen because I mean, most of my opportunities do come on the women's side because I've been on that doing that for so long. And and that's the way and I have been very, very happy doing that.

Daniel Kiernan  09:40

And that's the bit that as we move into your life, your career you were a very good player yourself. You played you played at Wimbledon. You played Grand Slams you you're played to a to a high level early on in the juniors. Give us a little overview of I guess your your journey into tennis. Where did it start? Where did the passion start to burn inside of you that this was, this was the sport for you that was going to lead you through life, which it has for the last sixty years or so

Nigel Sears  10:16

it's the long time. It started off because I grew up in this little village in Sussex, and in this village, it had a cricket pitch, a football pitch and two tennis courts. And that's what we did. Before and after school and my my dad was a keen club tennis player, and I used to go and watch him play. He used to play with me a bit initially. And I used to enjoy playing all the sports, I just loved it. And then he got me to a tennis coach when I was about nine. And when I was 12. My coach said, Well, look, you know you're coming to, to these tennis sessions totally knackered on a Saturday because you've been playing school football. So you know, you need to if you want to be any good at tennis, you've got to if you want to be really good at tennis, you need to start specializing. And so from 12 years old onwards, I really gave tennis my best shot, but at 24 I realized I probably wasn't going to get a whole lot better. I was sort of fringe, and you know, playing qualifyings and playing challengers. And, you know, if I was lucky I got a wildcard somewhere or whatever, but I I just didn't feel I was gonna get a whole lot better. At 24 I stopped and a dear my dear friend Paul Hutchins, who then was in charge of British tennis, said, Look, you know, you're still playing at a decent level. We've got this young guy, Jeremy Bates going out. So will you take him to Brazil and play doubles with him and you know, and so on, and just show him the ropes because he hasn't been on a tour and he was just sort of getting into the Challenger level and so on. And that was really the start coaching and very fortunately, he Paul and the LTA put me through my coaching exams very early, and so on. And I did some camps at Bisham Abbey and I traveled with some teams and I've worked across different age groups. And then initially, I started working on the men's side. And there was a sponsor, John Lang the building from the building company, sponsored this squad. And, you know, there was Chris Bailey, Mark Petchey, Darren Robertson, Lawrence Matthews, but Chris Wilkinson was on it briefly for a while. And, you know, I ended up with after I'd spent some time with the LTA, Richard Lewis became in the head of women's tennis, and men's actually all doing both worlds with men and women's tennis. And he said, Look, we're going to start some national centers. And can you do something in Brighton, Sussex, and he gave me an opportunity to set up something there. And then, you know, Chris Bailey, Mark Petchey, Luke Milligan, Barry Cowan, Andrew Richardson, came down. And initially, I'd been traveling with Petch and Bails and traveled a bit with Luke and I worked with those guys. And then Claire would ask me to go on a couple of trips with her. And I did that at the Center for five years. And then after five years, and some frustrations and some disputes about getting more courts, because we had a very strong squad, and we had the worst facility by miles in the country. And so it was with Dean Estate in Brighton, and it was sort of a council run setup. And the LTO, resurface a couple of courts, but we need more courts. We needed some play courts and so on. And there were plans in the pipeline, and there were promises and wanted to develop it. And it never happened that the promises never materialized. And I started to get more and more frustrated. And plus, you know, Chris Bailey, Mark petchey and Claire Wood were winding down their careers. But because of the tournament's I've traveled with Claire Wood. I've got to know some of the pros there and whatever. And out of the blue, I suddenly got a call from Amanda Coetzer, diminutive South African five foot two but with one of the biggest hearts in tennis and was absolutely electric fast. Yeah, so that's how it started. And then I started traveling with Amanda on the tour. And she got to number three in the world and did well

Daniel Kiernan  14:41

Not a bad start.

Nigel Sears  14:43

Well it wasn't me who got into number three. Actually, Gavin Hopper the guy before we had got it to number three. You're right. It was a great way to start and when she told me her ranking, it dropped down to 20 something and I did help to get her back to the top 10 She got back to top 10 And she got back to seven or eight. But it was Gavin who originally got it to three. But she was a she had a wonderful player. And, and I actually ironically, she she's currently living 20 minutes from our house. Yeah. And I three months ago, and it was great to see her.

Daniel Kiernan  15:20

Just ask him a question that jumps into my head, as a young coach, which not saying you're not a young coach anymore, your an experienced coach now. In terms of Yeah, being being a young coach, and it happening so close to your playing career? And I guess it's a two pronged question. One, one, is there anything you would do different as a player, you know, you had relative success as a player, but maybe didn't get similar to myself get quite as high as it sounds like we kind of played with similar ish sort of level where we didn't quite break through now. Then those regrets on or those areas that you felt you could have done better? Because it's so fresh? Do you think you were then able to implement them as a young coach, whereas maybe 20, 30, 40 years on, it's sometimes harder to remember how we feel when we were a player? And then it becomes a little bit harder to maybe relate, identify that makes sense?

Nigel Sears  16:28

Yeah, I mean, for sure. There are things when I look back. And I mean, I've just to give you an example. When I was 15, 16, things were progressing well. And at that point, the best part of my game was my surf. And then typically, as a young player, I was trying to surf too hard. And I damaged my shoulder, I got a bad shoulder and injury, and it kept me out for a year. And when I started playing again, I was starting a scholarship at Millfield School. I was 16 years old, but it was in September, I basically missed the whole the whole year. And the coach, there was a guy called David Camm. And he and he has a huge heart. And He did everything for all of us in the team to try and help us become as good as we could possibly be. But he decided there that it was my action that was causing the problem in my shoulder. But I was very happy with my action. But he changed my sir. And it never as good afterwards now and I you know, okay, part of me, regrets that, that I went along with the change, because I think it cost me dearly. As I started to try and play pro and play better. It cost me dearly. But, you know, he did so many other good things to me and gave me so many opportunities and supported us all. So well. Okay, you know, there were a lot of pluses there, during midfield. That certainly helped get me up to a level to be selected for the British squat. So you know that and that was important because it meant sponsorship being on Paul Hutchins is squad based at the YMCA in Wimbledon and training at Queen's every day under Roger Becker at the time. That was a huge opportunity, because they financed us to travel in place and what was in those days satellites, and lower level tournaments that might not otherwise have been able to afford to get to. So that was, you know that there were a lot of pluses from going to perform and so on. But that put me back, it sent me back and that caused a problem in during the time I was trying to play, then I suppose to follow up on your main point there, the thing I would do very differently is that now it's very clear to me that you've got to look at a player and look at the priorities and the things that would make a difference, the things that, if done better, would really help that player, and how to go about it and when to go about it. And so on, and it's a lot more specific these days, way more specific. And of course, you've got the advantage of having stats, you've got the advantage of viewing looking all your matches back and looking at other players and you can put two players on a screen and you can say look, this is the way this player you know who's in the top 10 hits their shot and this is the way you do it and so on look at it in slow motion and there's so many tools now you can use but I think in those days coaching was a lot less specific. And you know, right now if I if I had that time again, I'd say right okay, who's the best guy  around to help me on this service shoot, you know, who do I need to get to to sort this out and help me you know, at that I'm and, and it's worth taking a bit of time out, fixing. In the same way. I remember playing at the same time as me was Paul McNamee. And he was playing the same British satellites and stuff that I was playing. And then he decided his game wasn't good enough. And so he was brave enough to take six months out, he went to Bollitierri in Florida, he changed from what used to be an old fashioned eastern forehand grip to a Western, a full western grip. He changed his back end from a single hand back into a double ended backhand. Oh my goodness, he did it for six months, and in such an intense way, hit 1000s of balls. And he came back and started beating everybody. And the rest is history he became, you know, one of the best doubles players in the world. But he also had a pretty decent singles career to me was very respectable and a whole lot better than mine. So I wish I'd done something like that, you know,

Daniel Kiernan  21:03

my 100th episodes of control the controllables was Nick Bolletieri. And God rest his soul. Yeah. And then we also had Jimmy Arias came on. And and they both talked a lot about at that time. And the certainly they said that Jimmy changed tennis with the with the forehand, and whether that's true or not, who knows. But the with the grip, and basically, nobody can handle the spin that he played with. And, and that was then became the Bolletieri way. So I would imagine maybe Paul went after that period, and that was

21:41

Probably actually around about similar. I would say, Paul probably went a little earlier than that. I mean, he always very big on big forehands, and so on. So

Daniel Kiernan  21:53

I might have to do my research and get back to Jimmy, get him on the pod and say, Hey, Jimmy, you were taking credit for this, you know, we have

22:03

Jimmy's forehand was a lot bigger than Paul's ever was. So maybe Jimmy's was another level again,

Daniel Kiernan  22:10

In terms of then the next bit is you. You start coaching, you're you, you haven't just gone and coached. Anybody, you've started coaching at the absolute, absolute top, and you're not doing the necessarily the county squads. As such, you know, it's happened, it's happened to it to a very high level, you know, working with Chris Bailey, and all of those guys, it's happened to a very high level with Amanda. At what point I guess for any coaches listening, how clear was your philosophy? And at what point did your your coaching philosophy start cementing a little bit more?

22:51

Well, the thing is, when I started out playing, I never really had a plan. I just love tennis, I just played and then, you know, you start, you get to the age of 24. And you start to think, well hold on a minute, I need to get my own place, I need to, you know, if I if I want a family, you know, I'd already met my wife, my future wife, and so on. And so you start to think, what are you what are you doing, you need to find a direction. So that's fine. I sort of made the decision to go into coaching. And you're right, I was fortunate in the sense that Paul who had supported me as a player Paul Hutchins, he he guided me in the early early days into coaching and in an in very much in British temps. And I've done a couple of different stints with the LTA and still have a very good relationship within you know, in a more of a consultancy role these days, but it's like a it's a I think the the way I'd like to say I was I was fortunate but obviously once when you work with a top 10 player who who's making finals of big events and so on, the agents become aware of who you are and mostly after that Amanda finished and we parted ways or whatever. I took a short term job with Barbara Schett who had been coached by her then boyfriend and had been arguing a lot and he asked me to do a caretaker role with Barbara Schett and I did a summer with with Barbara she didn't do particularly well actually because she was in a bit of a mess at the time emotionally but you know she she was sort of ranked seventh in the world so I mean it was still at the top end of the game. And and I following that after after I very graciously and very quickly handed her back I still get on very well with Barbara to and of course she does a lot TV with Eurosport. I get a call from img about a young Daniela Hantuchova Now this wasn't at the top end, because she was only 18 years old, and she was ranked 30 in the world. So it was very much a case of starting in the qualies with her. And going through that, that with her. And it went very well. And I you know, within 18 months, she won Indian Wells from an unseeded position beat three top 10 players, including Hingis in the final when she was number one in the world at the time. And Daniela got to five in the world. So, after five years with Daniella, or whatever it got, it got to the stage where I was kind of not in a bad way, but branded a female coach. So from there, you're getting good opportunities from that point, because you've already worked with three top 10 players. And I was fortunate enough to work with five more so eight top ten players that I've been lucky enough to work with. And it's been a wonderful, wonderful journey really.

Daniel Kiernan  26:01

And and on that Nige. So let's take those eight players. How, how do you? How do you approach that? I guess if we take, we take it from you know, you've mentioned agents or the conversations happening with agents, from that time and that initial conversation has happened? How does that progress into you being their full time coach? And how much emphasis do you put on trying to match up your belief in how their games should be developed? Or your your beliefs, your own personal coaching philosophies and beliefs? And well that? How do you talk us through that that scenario, how that comes about? And and how you get to that end point?

26:51

Well, let's start with the philosophy. Because you've asked me that you've mentioned that that word a couple of times, I mean, the first thing is, as a coach, your job is to help that player become as good as they possibly can be. And that means really trying to find every way that you have at your disposal to help them reach their potential. And to make a difference, you've got to try and make a difference. And be by not saying very much by giving them a free run, letting them compete more on their instinct, or it might be guiding them through every step of the way. It's the you know, every individual is very different. As you get older, it becomes less and less your ways the highway, you start off coaching like that you do, you've got this narrow philosophy, this narrow viewpoint and you think, Well, you know, you're obviously got to train really hard, and you've got to get super fit. And then you've got to, you've got to do this and you've got to serve well. And you know, so you've, you've got the idealistic view, initially, in early part of coaching, there's certainly how I thought, I don't know if you feel the same way. But then from there, it develops and grows through all the experiences you have, and you get put in so many different situations with so many different characters and personalities, and so many different game styles. So I mean, like, that's a very interesting topic when you talk about Okay, so we've mentioned Amanda Coetzer. I mean, I put two short legs on the tour but electric fast and then you work suddenly work with Daniela Hantuchova  who's got the longest legs on the toilet is six feet tall, you know, like so. And one of them is more of a counter puncher and a fighter and a retriever and magnificent defense but but strong enough to counter punch aggressively, which is Amanda. And then you've got Daniela had these long flowing levers and great you know, great ball striking and aggressive striker really at that time, with a good serve and good returns had been taught very well in Slovakia had a very, very nice game technically, that it inherited. And so then it was a question of just trying to help her to package that game and then get the belief and get the get behind her and really try and help her achieve what she was capable of. Valley story is that we set out when she was 18 with a with a goal of winning all four slams. And you know she ended up winning all four mixed doesn't count does it?

Daniel Kiernan  29:37

It goes on goes on the CV you know just you just miss that you just miss a couple of lines out, won Wimbledon. Yeah,

Nigel Sears  29:50

so that was pretty funny. Yeah, well, we always we always joke about that now. In fact, funnily enough, I saw Daniela have an Indian Wells when I was there this year and she said Do you realize it 21 years since I won Indian Wells when we were together there, wow. So don't play some golf and celebrate that. And we had a lovely round of golf. So that's nice

Daniel Kiernan  30:09

On that. So like, I guess we've touched on game styles. But you as a coach you I guess my view from the outside of you Nige is as a coach and I've, I've not been lucky to spend that much time with you, you know, it's been nice the last few months to see you at various events and get to pick your brain and have conversations on the bus back to the hotel or wherever it may be. But your I guess reputation would have been as someone who is quite strong, you know, quite a dictator, who this is how it works. You've got it, you've got to put the hours in, you've got you're not you've got to go that way. Is there anything within your philosophies of working with players? That is non negotiable for you, you know, there's going to be your various game styles based on their, their physical makeup, their mental makeup. But what are the things that if you work with Nigel Sears it's a non negotiable, that they must do X Y Z? And that doesn't have to be how they hit a tennis ball? That can be absolutely anything?

Nigel Sears  31:20

Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. Again, the more different personalities should work with and different game styles, you become more flexible and more versatile, as you get older. However, I like to feel that I mean, obviously, you want a good relationship with who you're working with. And you, it's great if there's a bit of banter and, and you, you can laugh and smile, and joke and enjoy the good times and sort of weather the bad times, and there's inevitably ups and downs with any of these coaching relationships in terms of the fortune of the player, and so on. And they've got to cope with disappointments, as well as the elation of winning big and so on. But I think the main thing is, however, all of that being said, I've always regarded myself that I take my my job seriously. And I want the person I'm working with to take the job seriously. Yeah, even though you have different levels of work ethic, different levels of intensity, different quantities that the player plays, or practices like some, some are capable of great intensity in practice, but their minimalists, practice for that long, they'd rather fall out there on the court for a shorter time, and high quality and then get off and I and these people, that I that have been like that, I think that they've been very receptive, they got the best out of their practices. And then you've got others that just simply want to put the volume in and want to, you know, they get their confidence from volume and so on. So there's no set rule. But I guess the answer to your question is, they need to be determined, they need to be hungry. And probably another part of my philosophy is, and one of my favorite sayings is that 'perseverance is excellence in disguise'. And that's one of my favorite sayings. I don't know who came up with that. But I've always, that's always resonated with me. And I think there's an awful lot to be said, for perseverance, you know, desire to be really hungry, to, to just go after the challenge, relish the challenge, and be determined, you're gonna succeed, you'll never have a lot of confidence until you've won a lot of matches, you need somebody winning matches that you develop real confidence. I mean, you can feel good about how you're hitting the ball. And you can, you know, you can do that in practice and feel good about it. But to have real confidence for when it really matters. You got to do a fair amount of winning, and I think you have to build up a winning ratio, you have to win the majority of tie breaks, you have to win the majority of tight matches, that's what breeds real confidence.

Daniel Kiernan  34:16

And in that relationship, which, again, I'm curious, it's not often I get to speak to someone who has worked with eight players inside the top 10. So these are may be selfish questions as well. But within that situation, as that's been set up, and you starting to work with a player, it's almost impossible to know that the connection is going to be really strong. You know, you can have conversations, you can have a trial week you can have, you can have various things but when you start getting into the real nitty gritty of is the player going to do those things that are non negotiables for you, you know, is is the game style or the identity that they're going to play with matching up with what you're version of that is the so how quick Do you almost when you take on these roles? How quick do you get to the point where it's like, do you know what this is gold dust, because the best player coach relationships are the ones that have the best success. And how quickly is it like shit? I've jumped into the wrong job here. I'm not the right person. Do I persevere and try or is it sometimes best to said you know what? Let's let's move away from this because this is not the not the right relationship.

Nigel Sears  35:33

Okay, so I think for sure you give it your best shot in every job that you take. You give it your best shot, but it won't surprise you that, okay, there's 8 top 10 players I've worked with them all different lengths of time. And I mean, I can I can go through it right now. I mean, Amanda Coetzer, I had three years worked very well Barbara Schett was a caretaker scenario got on with a great off the court, where she lost a lot of final set, tie breaks in six weeks, we had together. And also she was going through a rough time. At that point. She wasn't really that receptive to anybody at that point as just at that point. It was a tough time for her. She'll be the first one to say that now. That was a six week caretaking stint. Five years I had with Daniela Hantuchova. Maria Kirilenko job that I did, I'd be Sven Gunfeld who was working for Adidas at the time had asked me if Maria was one of the Adidas players when they had this Adidas team. And he said, Look, she's struggling at the moment. Could you go and do the Asian tour with Maria? And that's all he said. He just said the Asian tour and I said, Well, actually, there's a big change going on at the LTA. A guy called Roger Draper is coming in. And he's going to have a different approach at the NTC. And there's a couple of jobs that were appealing at the time because I've done an awful lot of traveling. And at that point, what I'd really like to do something in British tennis again, I'd like to be based at home for a period of time. And as you know, because you work with Karl Marx. Karl Marx became the head of women's tennis at that time under Roger Draper, and I became the head coach and Fed Cup captain, which is now the Billie Jean King cup. But Svenn had omitted to tell Maria that he because he just wanted me to help her for a short term period of time. And so, it was such a shame but actually, I got on well with Maria. I did the Asian tournaments with her. We went to Korea, we went to China we did we did those tournaments out there. And then at the end of it, they very kindly offered me a year's contract. And I said, well, didn't didn't Svenn tell you I'd applied this LTA, which starts in December. And now he said, No, no, you didn't. That one was short Ana Ivanovic. After that I worked with for five years, I think the world of Ana she was a fabulous player, probably the most gifted player I've ever worked with. Then I had a very brief stint after that with Katerina Makarova. That was one summer in the States. When all right actually she beat Caroline Wozniacki at the US Open, she won Washington. She won that tournament. She actually did well that summer. But I couldn't go, I already had TV commitments. I was doing TV at the time, and I couldn't go to the Asian tour and she wanted someone to go to do the whole Asian tour. So I said, No, I'm sorry. I've committed to the TV work over that period of time it was with BT Sport. And Thomas Hofstede took that job on the Asian tour, and he did that, but I had a good summer with a Katerina. Anett Kontaveit after her I worked with for three years, that went very well. And then of course, I'm counting Emma as a top 10 player, Emma Raducanu, I had a brief stint. I'd worked with her from 15 to 18 as a junior when I was back in the UK when I wasn't on the road with Anett so I'd had continuity with Emma for three years, but obviously I'm travelling a lot with Anett during that time. When Emma did leave school I went full time with Emma. And I went full time with her as soon as she finished her exams in the I think it was the March I went full time I and she gave me a full time contract till the end of Wimbledon and she made fourth round of Wimbledon everything was great, but uh you know the rest I didn't get another contract.

Daniel Kiernan  39:47

And I have to ask because anyone listening to this is going okay, what happened? What happened? What didn't happen?

Nigel Sears  39:55

I think it's not a I had no issue with Emma at all, and I think Emma's dad just had a different view on things. He wanted to use a lot of different coaches.

Daniel Kiernan  40:08

And he's done that.

Nigel Sears  40:12

And that was his view on it. And so that was it.

Daniel Kiernan  40:15

What's your what's your view? As someone who knows Emma really well, someone who was working with her in the months leading up to her US Open, just astonishing Roy of the Rovers run. Did you see that? That was on the horizon. That summer, when you were working with her? Obviously, Wimbledon, she was fantastic. I don't know exactly what happened. But obviously, we all saw that she had a little bit of a moment in that fourth round where she, she, she seemed to be struggling with her breathing. People talked about panic attacks. But she was showing that level. And then if you had one piece of advice that you could give her now what would that be for her to get back to back to that?

Nigel Sears  41:01

No, I wouldn't. I mean this a bit to be quite honest with you. I haven't done any press on Emma. And I don't, I don't really want to do a lot of chatter. So what I will say is, when I saw Emma at 15 years old, I thought she was sensational. I thought that she was going to be an amazing player. When I went full time for those few months with Emma, nothing changed that opinion. I thought that she was absolutely top quality, great girl, and extremely talented, and heading to do very well. She was in a good place at Wimbledon. She did, she did great. When she went on to the States, she won matches a lot of matches at the smaller tournaments. So she had had a lot of matches in the Challengers before Wimbledon, she had matches at Wimbledon. She did extremely well in the smaller tournaments in the lead up to the US Open could I say she was gonna win the US Open, of course not! But of course not. Nobody could say that. Could you say that she was going to break history and qualify and win 10 matches in a row and play the kind of final that she played? Of course not. But I always thought maybe one day she'd win a slam or whatever. And she made more out. I think it's entirely up to Emma, what she does. I think she's very capable of coming back and being at the top level again. I think it would be nice if she settled with a team that she really believed in and there was some continuity. I think she needs that. But, you know, I wish her really well. And I and I think it's entirely up to the future.

Daniel Kiernan  42:44

Would you take the job if it came back to you?

Nigel Sears  42:47

I guess this just wrap up? Yeah. I mean, of course, it's it's something that I yeah, I mean, to me, it's an unfinished job.

Daniel Kiernan  42:58

And in terms of someone who has had your experience, what's your biggest regret?

Nigel Sears  43:06

Nobody I've actually been with at the time, has won a slam, let's think. I mean, even though even though they've had numerous quarterfinals, and semifinals, and so on. I mean, I wasn't with Ana when she won the French Open. And then I when I worked with Ana, she was in crisis a bit of the time when I got the phone call in the first place, and got the phone call because the ranking had dropped. I felt I was part of her getting back into the top 10. Again. So similar thing to Amanda Coetzer, really, that she'd already had her highest ranking, she'd already been a good player, those two. So they was already they were already established with Daniela Hantuchova. I thought I did the journey with her in the same way as I did the journey with Emma, you know, it was that there were younger players and we did the journey from a low ranking. So the different scenarios, Anett Kontaveit well she was in between because she was only 24. So when I when I started with Anett, and she clearly a good player, the ranking was saying 27 or something when I took her. And when I was with her in those three years, she got up to 14 made final at Wuhan like semi finals of the Miami event. Had some good results. Make quarters of the Australian Open actually. So I've had a bunch of people who've made quarters or semis but not somebody who's won the singles. So if I look back, it's not so much as a regret. But that was a goal when I started and that's been a dream that I've always wanted to be with somebody and help them win a slam and Of course, Emma won. And I'd been with her beforehand. And I don't mind I can kind of think well maybe I contributed, I wasn't actually there

Daniel Kiernan  44:59

Do you, I always find this an interesting question. And I asked it to a lot of people, players, coaches, many people that have come on, do you view your career as successful?

Nigel Sears  45:12

Well, I've certainly been a better coach than I was a player. There's no question about that. So, yeah, I think I've had a good innings. And I'm very happy with it. And you know, to be honest with you from where I am right now, I'd be very happy to share some of those experiences in coach education and help other coaches, with their players. I'm talking to people about doing that at the moment. And I think that I've already done a bit of coach education. I think that's a broader remit. And it's certainly probably a good thing for me to think about doing more of now.

Daniel Kiernan  45:54

Good. And my follow up question to that is, would you measure success differently now than you would have in your, in your younger coaching years?

Nigel Sears  46:08

Yeah, I think that when you're younger, you look at end product. And you you look very clearly, well, let's just look at the results. Let's look at how many Slam titles, let's look at this, let's look at that. And ultimately, that is the measure. I mean, that is the measure because the ranking doesn't lie. And the best players win the slams for that for that two week period, or whatever. But to make a difference, to give everything you've got to the challenge to the project, and to make a difference is extremely rewarding. And if you've done that, in most cases, then I think that's also a good measure.

Daniel Kiernan  46:51

Good wisdom. With it, I've had so many of these amazing chats now, and it is one of my big takeaways is like, how do we measure success? And I think it's the same. It's the same with players. You know, I've got a meeting with Harri and Lloyd later and we're about, you know, we're going to be going through goals and just kind of re reconnecting, really now that Harry's wife's given birth to their baby boy, you know, reconnecting for the for the second half of the year. And that's certainly something I encourage players I work with to also have other measures of success that aren't just winning a tennis match. Because, you know, if we get those other measures, or those other successful things in place, whether it's, it's happiness in some other part of their life, whether it's health, taking care of their body, whether it's setting something up and buying a house and having things going well in their life, I guess the success on court is a little bit easier to come by. And and I would agree with you, I think when we're young, it's just, it's just about let's take on this we spoke about Ons earlier, probably in her head, she can't get away from success being winning Wimbledon. And

Nigel Sears  48:07

It's a label and it's there when there's so much at stake in a Wimbledon final. And you can't blame her for it, meaning everything to her. It's just a question of how you deal with that on the day. And it's, you know, I mean, I got to remember, Andy lost his first four finals. Lendl lost his first four finals. I mean, it's like, it's a tough world out there, you're playing against great players.

Daniel Kiernan  48:31

But Andy and I and I'm not just using Andy as the example because you're his father in law. I use Andy as an example a lot because 2012 The whole world saw him break down and and, you know, the show that vulnerability, but I remember really clearly him saying that he accepted in that period that actually I might not win a Grand Slam. And it was amazing by accepting that he might not and removing a bit of the expectation. He then went and won the Olympics. A few weeks later, he won the US Open a few months. A few weeks later, he then won the next Wimbledon. And it was like the floodgates of of success. This thing opens it by removing it as as a must. Now, Nigel, I was about to ask you what your most embarrassing moment ever was as a tennis coach, and I'm going to preempt this by saying, Do you eat sushi anymore?

Nigel Sears  49:38

I mean, I mean, seriously, it's happened to me five times in my life. Okay. But that was by far. I had very little warning. I was trying to leave the court because I felt unwell. And I thought I was going to throw up. But then when I was just going up the stairs I just completely blacked out. And it was, yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  50:06

 this was Australian open stands.

Nigel Sears  50:12

I'm in the stands, and Ana Ivanovic. You'll have to remind me she was playing but I, I want I want, yeah, I know who it was, she was playing Madison Keys. And she was actually set up two one up. And I felt confident enough. Okay, I can leave now. She's set to one out, I can leave now and go quickly. Because I just felt horrible. I definitely had a stomach issue. And then, you know, for about a minute and a half a minute and 45 seconds, apparently, there were some really worried people around me because I you know, they couldn't find a pulse. I wasn't breathing. And it was scary for those people, including her parents, who were in the box and and Andy Bettles, who was there with me at the time. And, yeah, no, I wake up and I got this defibrillator on me and this person pounding my chest, and it was and then they put me in an ambulance. And I had all the tests. And I stayed in hospital for two days and, you know, had even more tests. And so yeah, I mean, the fuss that that caused when actually but the time I came round in the ambulance, I was feeling a lot better, but they'd nobody would believe me, they made me do all these tests.

Daniel Kiernan  51:28

So, it was all about the sushi.

Nigel Sears  51:31

Well, I thought I mean, it was in hindsight, yeah. Because it's, it's that those kinds of incidents have happened to me a couple of other times when I've had food poisoning and or if I'd been in extreme pain, which I was once when I went to the hospital, because I've had issues with my hip, and I actually had gone to the hospital to have an ultrasound guided cortisone injection into my hip. But I was in so much pain, it happened to me there. And then the next thing I know, I'm in the cardiac unit actually happened when I was in hospital. So that was the best place for it to happen. But it happened five times in my life. So I mean, I guess it'll happen again. But I've been, you know, I've had all the tests and checks and everything else. So that was pretty embarrassing. And there's been numerous other things, you know, but yeah, that turned out. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  52:19

And before we move into the quickfire round, the future for Nigel Sears, and in that future, I know we talked about having obsessive tennis parents, are you going to be one of these obsessive tennis grandparents?

Nigel Sears  52:36

I promise you, I felt, I mean, my son played tennis, he went to America. And he did. And by you know, I watching him play Junior tournaments, and a couple of Futures events was almost enough to push me over the edge.

Daniel Kiernan  52:55

It is extra stressful as a parent

Nigel Sears  52:57

You can't detach yourself emotionally from it. It's, you know, I mean, when you? Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I've got some memories of that. And I certainly, you know, got four grandchildren. So I mean, like, future holds spending a bit more time with them, I think, the UK based more doing some work and with a broader outlook, Coach education, and some, whatever helping in a broader way. I think that's what I'm looking at.

Daniel Kiernan  53:34

Nigel, you've you've been an absolute star today. But you also have for, for British tennis over the years, as well. And, you know, on behalf of everyone that there's a big community here at the podcast that big, well done, and thank you for all of your work that you've put in, you know, it's only only coaches like yourself that have done it been on the road, really, truly understand what it is to dedicate your life to produce tennis players know, yes, there's the ups and there's the there's the great lifestyle that can go with it, but also the challenges and the sacrifices that that have to be taken in order to achieve that. So a big big thank you for today. A big thank you for what you've done over over a long period of time.

Nigel Sears  54:23

Thank you

Daniel Kiernan  54:24

The quick fire round. Are you ready?

Nigel Sears  54:27

No idea what that is. But let's go

Daniel Kiernan  54:29

Serena or Venus?

Nigel Sears  54:31

Serena

Daniel Kiernan  54:32

Serve or return?

Nigel Sears  54:34

Serve

Daniel Kiernan  54:36

Lets or no lets?

Nigel Sears  54:39

Oh definitely let

Daniel Kiernan  54:41

The most challenging player you've ever worked with.

Nigel Sears  54:46

I get in all kinds of trouble if I answered that one.

Daniel Kiernan  54:49

Just said Jeremy Bates.

Nigel Sears  54:51

Just it's easy to say him like him a target. I wouldn't say that.

Daniel Kiernan  54:56

If you could work with anyone on the tour who Would it be of all time?

Nigel Sears  55:06

Oh well, I don't know about that because I mean if it's a question was sitting there and watch an appreciating the tennis I'd sit there and appreciate Roger Federer I don't think he'd need any of my advice at all but I would sit and watch it and appreciate it because to watch he was just majestic.

Daniel Kiernan  55:30

What does control the controllables mean to you?

Nigel Sears  55:35

It do it to the best of your ability your ability, but we're all human.

Daniel Kiernan  55:39

What's one life goal you still want to achieve?

Nigel Sears  55:43

Somebody to win a Grand Slam please.

Daniel Kiernan  55:47

Underarm serve or no?

Nigel Sears  55:50

Oh, absolutely not.

Daniel Kiernan  55:52

Roger or Rafa.

Nigel Sears  55:54

Rafa, in the terms of the brute physicality and he has to work harder, I think. I mean, I've got massive respect for both. But I mean, I I've always admired the way Rafa competes and just leaves it all out there.

Daniel Kiernan  56:12

Who will finish the year as world Number one on the women's side in 2023

Nigel Sears  56:21

Wow. Well, if I had to bet I'd go with Swiatek, you know, because it's probably going to be Swiatek. rybakina. Or Sabalenka that those three but I think Swiatek is just a little more complete than the other two. So I'm gonna go with Swiatek

Daniel Kiernan  56:44

And who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables

Nigel Sears  56:49

Bates Have you had him

Daniel Kiernan  56:52

No, we haven't. But But the rule the rule is that you've got to you've got to pass the baton.

Nigel Sears  57:00

You have to Powell you really you making up these rules? I've never heard that

Daniel Kiernan  57:04

You've got to listen to the other 196 Nigel you'll see you know the baton gets passed so that's that's if it's in your it's in your capabilities to hook it up and let me know then they're missed we'll get Jeremy on

Nigel Sears  57:20

I mean does it have to be a British guy?.

Daniel Kiernan  57:24

No, no, no. Not at all we've had we've had old we've had Iga we've had Iga on we've had we've had also yeah Kazatkina has come on. We've had Borna Coric we've heard the air many. There's been many that have been on. So a

Nigel Sears  57:41

barrel to have Jeremy Bates on Brittany. I'm in a really, really dark week.

Daniel Kiernan  57:48

Exactly what was sometimes get desperate. So when we have a desperate we will get Jeremy on

Nigel Sears  57:53

Down under when I'm desperate. Jeremy.

Daniel Kiernan  57:57

But then and then the big question that listeners are asking. Because we have Nick Bolleteri for 100 episode. You are 197 So we are getting very close to the big 200. So who should our 200th Episode be?

Nigel Sears  58:15

Then you either got to knock on Sir Andrews store? He's got to go. Gotta go massive for 200.

Daniel Kiernan  58:24

We have. We do and we have a we have a verbal agreement. I say we I had a verbal agreement from Sir Andrew in Marbella a few weeks ago. So we've so he's given me the verbal agreement. It's now about about wherever we can get it over the line. Now. I don't know if you happen to ever spend any time with him if you know him if it ever if it ever comes up in conversation.

Nigel Sears  58:51

He totally overreaction and you have to dress the Andrew Baron.

Daniel Kiernan  58:58

Exactly. It could. It could be any Sir Andrew? Yeah, Nigel, you've been a star. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for your time. Brilliant. Thank you. So the big question I have, and I'm gonna ask Vicki who's alongside me. So Andy, is finally Nigel the one that's going to be able to get Sir Andy Murray, on to Control the Controllables

Victoria Kiernan  59:23

I would say that the pressure is firmly on your shoulders. Or the Andy Murray fans who listen to Control the Controllables and there are many, many, many of us. I think we are all looking to you. Can you get him on? No pressure?

Daniel Kiernan  59:40

Well, let's see. Let's see. There were maybe a step closer than we were a couple of weeks ago. This is Episode 197 Episode 200. So Andy Murray has a nice ring to it.

Victoria Kiernan  59:51

Well, what was it Nigel said perseverance is excellence in disguise so it will see if your perseverance for the last three years will pay off

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:00

I certainly can't knock out perseverance. But I would have absolute respect for Nigel, because he in himself is an incredible, incredible guests to have. Let's bring it back to Nigel. And he gave us lots of those things, you know, lots of things that you can kind of furiously scribble down and say, Oh, that's an absolute beauty there, I'm going to take with me into my coaching career into my tennis, parents life, whatever it might be. And coaching, eight top 10 WTA. And the amount of times and I think it also shows how serious and he said that himself how serious he takes the role, the job, you know, and it's, it shows that the fact that he could, he could almost just name off not only the players he'd worked with, but the rankings that they were at, when they started the rankings, when they left the amount of time that he spent with them. You know, he's obviously a very proud man, and rightly so for for the job he's done. But he still has that elusive Grand Slam title. There's not quite to his name. As a coach,

Victoria Kiernan  1:01:12

I think once you're at the level, where you're saying that to remain up, they didn't win a Grand Slam when I was working with them, you're working with Grand Slam winners, is a pretty awesome career. I mean, you guys talked about measures of success. How many coaches can say that would even come in into their stratosphere? Radar world? What's the word I'm looking for?

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:36

Yeah, absolutely. And the thing for me talking to someone like Nigel, and I've been so fortunate this year to have quite a few conversations with him. I alluded to that on the on the conversation we had on buses, going back from tennis centers, going back to the hotel, and just having the chance to pick his brain really, and, you know, find out how he thinks. And he talked about it a little bit on the episode, but he actually talks about it even more to me on on this particular bus ride of, of how he has had to change as a coach as well. And I think that is a massive lesson for us, you know, because I think there's lots of coaches out there might be parents, it might be I've heard parents over the years that say, this is just how I am I can't change now. You know, and it's like, come on, we've, we're in a world where we have to adapt, be more flexible. And and he showcased that and you know, his most recent player was was from China, again, a completely different culture that he's that he's had to be able to, to work with in that regard. He's worked with Emma Raducanu. We all know, the Emma Raducanu story that you know, lots it goes through her father. So how does he adapt to that situation, and Ana Ivanovic who, 2008, Grand Slam champion lost her ranking somewhat, and then building her back up, you know, Huntachova from a young age who, who wasn't at the top end of the game, but very a quick riser. And you think about all those different nations, all of those different cultures, all of those different family setups, you really have to be a person who was able to bring so many skills together to be able to make those relationships work. And it was just very interesting for me that that was kind of he talked about that more than he probably talked about how to hit a tennis ball. And you know, sometimes we we get caught up on the tennis ball hitting part of this, but there's so much more to it. And the the adaptability and flexibility of a coach came through loud and clear for me.

Victoria Kiernan  1:03:47

And not just making it work. But working making it work for five years. He said he worked with Ivanovic and five years with Hantuchova. I mean, that is a successful coaching player relationship right there twice. That's 10 years with just two players. I don't know how common that is on the WTA Tour these days. I don't know.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:06

Well, I know how hard it is been, together with you for 21 years,

Victoria Kiernan  1:04:11

Walked into that one.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:12

But yeah, it is different obviously, that that relationship where there is pressure at that top end they're looking to, they're looking for instant results. They're they're looking for small margins to move from number eight to number four, from number four to number two from number two to number one. So we're talking about very fine margins, the real high performance side of the game. You know, it's rare that you get the the easy wins at that level. And then like you said, it's how you weather the storms as well, because the storms are pretty high. And it's something I've realized, working on that level on the men's doubles over the last few months. The storms are pretty stormy. You know, it's like you think that it's all angels and fairies at the top end of the game, but it's pretty messy, it gets where it gets really quite messy because the stakes are so high in the one foot wrong pays. So daily, you know, you have to have everything in order, you have to have the team working, working around the clock, and everything needs to fit into place. And then we've got that that magic word that is so hard to come by which which is confidence, which, which you also alluded to as well.

Victoria Kiernan  1:05:31

And that's the elusive state that you're trying to reach, isn't it as a tennis player, you want to get to the point you need to win to build your confidence, but you need confidence to win. So we talk about it all the time with our players and with our son, you know, if he wins this match, it's going to really help his confidence in the third set tiebreaker, you know, we could have gotten into a whole big conversation with Nigel just on that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:56

The confidence thing is is massive. And this This is my this is my take on it, I think, yes. Confidence, we take confidence from our recent previous experiences, it's hard to take confidence on something that happened a long time ago. You know, so how things have been going, you know, naturally builds confidence. Now, what do we need confidence for confidence helps us commit easier. So I actually think we've got to get players into the state of mind of committing without confidence, you know, we almost need to take away the importance of what confidence is. Because if if you become too reliant on it, and it's the same in any field field of life, you know, any walk of life, you know, you could, you know, lose your confidence as a person, you can lose your confidence in your job, you can lose your confidence as a parent, you can lose your confidence in so many different ways. And if we're dependent on that feeling, then it's hard for us to function. So my advice on that is screw confidence we commit, we commit to things that are helpful with or without it. Yes, it's a beautiful thing when we have it. But if we don't know stress, we keep we keep committing. Just like I'm doing right now I'm not confident, always talking to you, Vicki or a journalist. It's not easy to come eye to eye with you. But I've just got to keep committing and I'm gonna . Absolutely. Who was what as what we've got to do. And now I'm going to commit to letting you know that we may have an amazing guest for you on episode 200. Come on. Am I confident that we're going to I don't know, but I tell you what I'm gonna trying to get Sir Andy Murray on in three episodes time. If not, I will try really hard to get another amazing guest on for that. But before then we'll have a couple of more brilliant guests coming your way over the next couple of weeks. So keep listening out. Thank you for your support. My last plea if you're still listening, myself, Vicki, many of our family and friends are going to be running the Great North Run, which is the half marathon 13.1 miles in in my home city, Newcastle. September 10th 2023 further Alzheimer's Society. My amazing mum was diagnosed for four and a half years ago. And I've seen the challenges that it's caused to herself but all of the family and the Alzheimer's Society do a brilliant job so we will pop the link in there. If anyone's got to spare a couple of pennies and want to support such a great cause. Please do but till next time. I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables