Episode 102: Louis Cayer - The Doubles Guru

DISCLAIMER: Please note we use a transcription service, so there may be some errors in the following transcription of this episode. If you can, please refer to the audio for exact quotations.

Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Control the Controllables. I'm Dan Kiernan from SotoTennis Academy in Spain, and we teamed up with MaxTennis Academy in Ireland. We brought this podcast together to entertain, educate, and energize the tennis community through the different lenses of the sport that we love. From Grand Slam champions to those at grassroots level, from sports journalists, to backroom staff. Our aim is truly to get under the bonnet of the tennis world at all levels. So sit back and enjoy the show. Welcome to Episode 102 of Control the Controllables last week, we had the Godfather of tennis in Nick Bolleteri. This week, we have the doubles guru.

Louis Cayer  01:02

Personally, I think that doubles is more exciting now than it was there's more variation, much more things is happening. And because they play both back, there is also a much more like a longer rally. Because when you're in the service line, you either make us steal, or the point is over.

Daniel Kiernan  01:19

That is of course, Louie Cayer. Back in 2007 He moved to Great Britain and completely changed the landscape of British doubles. Before he arrived, he was already the Canadian Davis Cup captain. He coached numerous world number ones, Grand Slam winners. He also coached nine singles players into the top 100 in the world. The guy's knowledge is absolutely phenomenal. As I say Australian Open, there was nine British players in the main draw, which is absolutely incredible. And then we had Joe Salisbury making the final of the men's doubles the semi final of the mixed doubles Jamie Murray semifinals of the doubles, the list goes on and on. And have the opportunity to sit and talk tennis with the man himself was just incredible. It is extremely educational. Sit back, get your notepad out, because there's lots to be written lots to be learned. And I'm gonna pass you over to Louis Cayer. So Louis Cayer welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Louis Cayer  02:33

I'm doing great, Dan, and even more right now talking to you.

Daniel Kiernan  02:37

It's amazing to have you on the show. Louis, you've been absolutely right there, we've been waiting for the right time for you to come on. And what better time after we've just finished the Australian Open, you know, nine British players in the main draw. You know, obviously, unfortunately, we're not talking about a winner. But we are talking about a finalist, a semi finalist in the men's doubles or semi finalist in the mixed doubles. And I'm surprised that you've got your eyes open, Louis because it must have been a lot of late nights the last couple of weeks.

Louis Cayer  03:07

Not late nights, early mornings. The semi final between Jamie Murray and Joe Salisbury, that was at 2am. And this morning in the final was at 4am. So a lot of times during the last two weeks, I had to wake up at 2am, 3am, 4am to watch a match. Then of course I provide a video analysis and so on. So yeah, a lot of early morning

Daniel Kiernan  03:31

And overarching kind of early reflections on the final. How do you feel the final went for Joe and Rajeev, earlier today?

Louis Cayer  03:40

Well, I have to give, that's a nice story for Filip Polasek, you should have him on his show, you know, on your show, he stopped playing tennis, I don't know for how many years, then decided to come back. And when he left, he was good. But he came back after a long time. And he's great. And today he was the star of the double match because he lost one point on his first serve, won 50% of return on first serve which is not very common. And 78% of return of second serve. This is like less than common. So he was a superstar in that match took control. And I talked to Joe and Rajeev and they just felt beaten so they you feel bad after but it's not like when you lost like you know support fabric at the end. And you know, you could have went and you played bad. They were just beaten.

Daniel Kiernan  04:26

Yeah, it seems like Polasek was was inspired. I know that a couple of days ago. He made the choice to stay in Australia because his wife gave birth to I think his first child I'm not sure if it's his first child. But it all it always seemed like he was a man possessed out there.

Louis Cayer  04:44

Yeah, for sure. So if it's if it's what it takes to get to win a slam, I think it will give ideas to some players. Yeah, like he was really really really good. So good for him with great tournament for Joe and Rajeev and and it's nice to see also talking about the Brits, Jamie back with Bruno. Yeah, he gets his mojo back. I think Jamie played very well, in one Melbourne just before, too. It's too bad. He had to play Joe in the semis. But yeah, he's doing very well. And pretty much all the Brits are playing some good doubles. It's nice to watch and play.

Daniel Kiernan  05:21

But just to take you back, Louis, I'm curious, you say about polacek wheeling 50% of return points off the first serve and 78 of the second what what are the averages on the men's tour for that

Louis Cayer  05:36

the objective that Joe and Jamie has, in order to finish like always, almost always in the top 10 is to win, like over 30% On first serve and 55 On second serve. Okay, if you do that, you win very often, the matches, unless, of course, you serve very poorly. But if you serve decent, and you win this percentage on return of serve, normally you win the match. So it's quite a lot, you have to win only 51% of the point to win the match. So it's pretty much all the time like this 51, 52 There's always a fine margin and the fine margin are, especially on return of second serve.

Daniel Kiernan  06:14

I'm a big fan of data analysis. And I think, you know, I'd love to get that into the chat as well today, Louis, but, you know, almost even more so in doubles, it seems. But it always seems to me when when there is data available, it has to feed into those bottom line stats, of how many ultimately how many points that you're winning? You know, I think sometimes people get caught up in how many double faults or they get caught up in a statistic that doesn't necessarily lead you to that kind of top top stat. How much are you using those kinds of objective measures with the players?

Louis Cayer  06:49

Pretty much all the time we have every match are tight and charted. And we used to have traditional like green, amber and red. So as soon as I see all the reports at the end, if I see red, oh, I said okay, I'll come that the video our target. So if I see, let's say they won 28% on the first, and on the second serve they won 55%. Oh, yeah, what's going on there? Then I go the filter. And I asked, okay, show me every backend return of second serve. And then I see if I see any patterns, and sometimes a pattern, they are anxious, they hit the ball too much in front. But it's not a technical problem. And people will think Oh, technically, no, they were just a bit anxious. Yeah. So I, for example, when the players say, my serve, let me down or prefer to say I was quite stressed to date. And I got my sir or my return, abandoned me today. I was a bit anxious, it makes me contact the ball too much in front. They take responsibility for the way they feel as a performer, and how it affects our technique, then they can refocus much more easily and matches and perform much more regularly than blaming the strokes and blaming something. Bottom line, they know how to hit the ball. So if they don't hit the ball, well, during that match, it could be your opponent is too good. You know, like, if I play you, you're gonna beat me Once upon a time, Louis once upon a time. Sometimes your players say, but if we're quite even and we miss a lot, it's very often it's because we're not performing well, either mentally, emotionally or physically.

Daniel Kiernan  08:30

And at what point do you go so let's say it might be Joe, it might be Jamie it could be Neal, you know, any of the British guys that you've worked with the last few years? When a red becomes a red flag? You know, if it's, as an example, they're winning 28% on second serves, is it if that happens three matches in a row four matches in a row, you then really looking to dig a little bit deeper. Is there a point that you kind of look at that?

Louis Cayer  08:59

Yes, absolutely. I will not even wait for four matches, okay, and two, eight and two in a row. Okay, now, then I will look at and sometime there. It's a kind, you know, like the chicken or the egg. Let's say like, I move very quickly like this, I'm very agitated. So maybe my mind also will get a bit in the frenzy. If I do yoga, breathe, relax, maybe my mind also will relax. There's a connection between the mind and the body. So sometimes I will look and if the player plays returned too much with his arm swinging a lot. And if his technique is rushy very often is mine get rushy, too. And if his mind is a bit anxious, a bit rusty to his technique become rushy. So sometimes you give a refocus technique because the key thing is not to going into a match, very focused, that's easy. It's what it's so easy to lose your focus or it's more often you can refocus quickly. So if you Give them a routine based on time between points. And then if they feel something like if they feel like getting heavy arm and body together. And if they feel for example, like just wait for the ball, you know like so that their mind is on the process. Because it's so easy to shift into the outcome wanting to win the point, wanting to crosscourt wanted to avoid defeat and during all that time, if your mind is on the future, there's a serve coming to you. And if you don't set up quickly, if you don't wait for the ball, then everything becomes difficult. So I strongly believe if you're ready for the ball, it becomes possible. If you're not set up for a walk the ball every ball becomes difficult. So it is to refocus on the process. Refocus on that and not of course, to think technically, of your elbow up and all this but you can think about a field getting heavy filled together feel this, that gives you an easy refocus, to play, to play well after.

Daniel Kiernan  10:56

And on that Louis so the stuff that we do at the Academy, we work with a sports psychologist, I don't know if you've come across him, Anthony Ross in Australia, who's fantastic. And you know, he was he was actually a good doubles player was about 130 in the world doubles. He has worked with a lot of players worked with Ash Barty, when she was younger, and we we talk about having helpful attentions to you know, to commit to and we break that down into internal external internal cues, which will be body or racket external cues, which would be target, or or a game style cue. You know, it seems when you're talking about especially the return of serve, how much of it do you put on a feeling which might be racket or body? Or will you have some players that are actually really that work a little bit better when they're committing to a target,

Louis Cayer  11:49

there is always a what to do before how to do so they have to commit to even a fast forehand down the line. Yeah, they don't commit to that I will be make contact, so they always need an intention. But once it's time to, to hit the ball, I made a research for example, that those who gaze the longest know, keep their head up contact like Federer. Alright, and many sports are pretty much like the elite the best. So even if it's a cliche, not to focus on contact, keep your head still just keep your mind on the process and fill your head. It's a it's a cliche, but it seems to be supported by some research. That is the right thing to do. So the intention is to proceed. But when it's time to hit the ball, you know, your mind has to be right there your focus right there and let it go. And you should know where you're going to hit. But when you like I say I mentioned to wait for a ball guy like Brennan was very good. We call that in technique like holding. So if he wait for the ball, and you see the Natera like crossing, it's very easy to change direction. But if he was doing a continuous motion, and suddenly the guy move and he tried to pull the swing in a different way you could miss a lot. So I like the feeling of a hold it no wait hold for the return. And then after that, you know like contour with hand and body together on first serve. On second serve, then you can attack you can just you know Jamie, old fashioned good old fashioned but all style come to the net like 80%. But you can attack on second serve, you have a lot of options on first serve is quite difficult to serve come fast. And there's a guy the net like almost like they squeeze a lot. No, it's done very close to the middle. They say try to attend the tramline or to make a great angle when the ball come on. Okay. So it's quite difficult. So it's Yeah, so you need commitment on the return mentally. And then after that you have to focus on the process, which is feeling the shot and be steady with it.

Daniel Kiernan  13:53

To those listening, Louis. If you haven't come across Louis, I'd be surprised if many of you haven't. But if you haven't, you need to you need to check out as much as you can on Louis Cayer. Because he really is a genius at work. And and when you're talking about the the return of serve. I'd love you to share a story which you've shared with me, Louis, I've been fortunate enough to hear this before on why you changed the terminology to be wait. You were telling me when the doubles guys were playing with Andy Murray.

Louis Cayer  14:25

Exactly. Yeah. First of all, I mean, I come from the Canadian. So I moved back to UK in 2007. So we were using the catch and turn. Okay, but we come from a sport more of baseball and we catch the ball in front. So so it was fine. When I arrived in UK, the catch didn't work that much. Because they catch a cricket. They catch in rugby, the it was a different and it didn't work very well. And suddenly, it was Dom Inglot who served very big who said wow, you know, it's so frustrating us Some of you look and he's waiting with his racket there and the ball come back to your feet. Yes, it's amazing. You know how quick you reach the ball. Sorry. So okay, that's that's the idea. So let's go right away wait for the ball and it has improved the return of everybody. Because before you hit it, you have to read it and you have to prepare and instead of saying prepare more compact instead of putting the attention on the body because almost everybody say more compact swing. So on a volley you don't say more compact swing to you know, so for me I groundstroke is a groundstroke a volley is a volley and a return is a return a return should not be like a short groundstroke a return should be a return. So you you wait for a ball. And then after that, you could of course just block it, you can just neutralize it. Or you can look to put more pressure by using your body. And we call that contouring country to serve. And for that you need to use your arm and body a bit more togethet which is a specific field. But yeah, it was Andy Murray, who and spar pretty much everyone and without returning stuff to be very good in doubles. And I think overall, all the Brits have benefit from that.

Daniel Kiernan  16:12

Yeah, because the eyes, the eyes will pick up, I guess the direction first, you know, when the balls coming out here before it picks up a depth perception.

Louis Cayer  16:21

Yeah, they pick up the direction first. So you have to set up quick. And you know, when you say more compact, what is more compact, you know, like, if my swing is this is that more compact, whereas more compact, but if you say wait, that's pretty, that's pretty obvious. You just put your racket there, more or less at the height of the ball, and then you stroke it back. And especially in doubles, you know you, you don't start a point with a moon ball, okay, you can lob very often the lobs are defensive, so you have to keep the ball low. So you have to prefer white at the same height as the ball in order to hit the ball like penetrating low. So it's not like you have to stand way back and make a nice loopy deep ball, and start the rally, sort of technique of the return is a slightly different we stand up also a bit closer because there's a net player. Yeah, you need to be you need to be quite charged to return well in doubles.

Daniel Kiernan  17:14

Okay, so you would see you would teach a slightly different technique for singles.

Louis Cayer  17:19

But in singles, look where on the Novak and all this sometime return it they returned like two or three meters behind the baseline in doubles. If you were like this, you would have to love and then there will be two guy ready to smash it, you won't, you will not win that many points. Yeah. So the return of first serve have to be close to the baseline compared to singles. Yeah, so you have to prepare even earlier, because you even have less time, because you know, the serve take point seven seconds to arrive to, to the receiver. So a lot of people want that point eight or by backing up. But we want to be close to the line. So we have to get the job done well. And beside loving, you want to almost counter attack, your return of serve keep it flowing away from the net player. So thanks. I think the skill is different than

Daniel Kiernan  18:09

that isn't different between men and women as well. Because the I guess the speed of serve is so different than I guess the women have a little bit more time. So would you would you teach the same technique to a female player as you would a male player when it comes to return?

Louis Cayer  18:25

First, I find the women return quite well, overall. And the only thing I will ask is maybe like too old. And I will ask your preparation more based on tactics. So if you if they feel that the opening squeezed the middle move or tried to poach to just burn them, like very quickly. Also, all them show him a sense of maturity and control. So for example, even if you have an easy ball, and you go to attack, you're open and if you hold your approach shot you're put into of trouble to time, the response that because this is the dynamic, if you attack me, I'll try to anticipate you so you're going to disguise your shot. If you disguise well, then I have to react. So I'm going to look to tie my split step to be as explosive as I can right or left, left, but you gotta hold your shot. And then boom, so you got to disrupt my splits that timing on it. And on the return same thing that I tried to read anticipate so you these guys are trying to be very explosive. If you all you glued the player right there because they have a feeling of the movie going to burn them right away. Oh, I will I will make more a tactical explanation on the exactly the type of return I look for. As for the guy it's there's a little bit of that more on the second serve in the first service pure spacetime. You have to be there. The ball comes very fast. You need that type of technique, otherwise, it won't happen.

Daniel Kiernan  19:57

I tell you what this for a tennis geek like my myself to get to speak to you of all those tennis stuff. This is, this is amazing. I've not even gotten my first question yet Louis and like this is, but which is absolutely amazing. But no, it's, what fascinates me about you, Louis is how you've become, such an Encyclopedia of tennis. And I guess, as I do of all guests, I always want to know where that where that was almost that passion started, you know. So if you go back to your very, very early days, I guess I'd love to know firstly, about how the passion for tennis started. And then secondly, your passion for coaching.

Louis Cayer  20:41

Wow, it's quite strange because in eighth grade when I was 13, I finish first in my class and the prize was a tennis racket. And I asked what is that? I didn't even know tennis. I honestly have no idea. So the teacher gave me a tennis ball. He say you use that and you hit on the wall, on your school wall. So I went there for about a month in June on their guard and bicycles. How you play tennis. say where do you play by here? Why, but you don't play on their club. Derrick Cole Woodland Hills Club. What is that? So you say Come with me. So you shouldn't be at risk? Or would the net and all this courts read was nicely card say, Wow, that's cool. But the membership was very expensive. It was $7 for the summer season. I'm 68. I was like 13. So that's 55 years ago. So so I'll ask my friends. So they say okay, so I started I just loved the atmosphere, the energy. I was even going there when it was raining because they had a table tennis, who could play table tennis and play cards. There was like a club life a club. Yeah. And yeah, I really enjoy it. And my passion for coaching. It came from a very pretty tennis instructor. My job in the summer was to unload tennis truck, tennis rack, trucks, hospital which I almost spilled. And it was just across a park where it was tennis courts. So I was going to eat my lunch at that park, there was a very pretty interrupters I want to just to chat or play tennis to I would much prefer teach that is then unload trucks. And so you just have to take that course and then say Will I be able to teach same place as you just maybe who knows. And I was able to teach in place as a result. That's funny, really. So I took a lesson like this I've done I just just loved it. I think I've even more a passion for coaching tennis than actually playing tennis even if I love playing my passion for coaching. I was there from the beginning, I was scouted by the person in charge of Tennis Montreal, he heard about me. I was 16 years old or 17. I didn't even take a lunch break, I was eating my sandwich giving lesson to kids who wanted to be good. And I was called because we won the baseball tennis championship in our park and Montreal there was like 42 parks, which is not even a real tennis tournament. And he heard about my passion about how I was always with the kids helping them to upgrade me and they're great me and when I was 19 I became in charge of the the elite of all the parks was in a special parts and the dwell there then the province the Federation Tennis Federation of Quebec, then heard about me our job as a provincial coach. And I did well there the National Tennis Canada made me a national coach. And after that Davis Cup captain, I really just went each step of a ladder, and I never burned I didn't start at the top. I start with the beginners in the park, to more advanced at that park then to regional, municipal, regional, provincial, national international. So if you talk to me about any steps club Academy, I've done quite pretty much everything every steps.

Daniel Kiernan  24:05

I had Craig Veals, Arthur Ferry's coach, and on last week, a couple of weeks ago on the podcast. And Craig spoke about the same sort of thing. And we fell into that. And then actually this morning we had lunch with with friends of ours a very successful businessman. And he spoke about how he got into business age 20. And he went through every single step in his business. And it really kind of hits home to me how important that is for tennis coaches. You know, and I think there is quite a lot of tennis coaches out there that want to jump the steps and sort of a tennis players, you know, whereas by doing each step, you then have the absolute context and you have empathy for everyone that you're working around you. You're able to just bring all of the different information you have into into a real world. Whereas if you miss too many of those steps, you aren't that you often get found out, I think,

Louis Cayer  25:06

I think so because I see, when we coach like, three, three different roles that we have, I think we teach a lot. We have to be good at skill development, we drill a lot to have to be good at training and push a comfort zone, push the limits, push the reflex the footwork, everything. And we have also to be a good match play coach between show them how to win more points or lose less points and stuff, I guess. I think it's difficult to be great at those three when you start right away at the top or right away traveling. Because you don't do that much skill development when you're with a player on the road. I don't say we don't do because we do. But we don't do as much as when you start with 12, 13 years old who have to need a lot of skill development. Also, when you train at home, or you do a training camp, you do more drilling than on the road. On the road, you don't try to exhaust your player No, you have to keep them fresh. So to be a very good driller. I think it's easier when you work in an academy when you have that whole thing. And then of course, to get a good match record, then you have to be a tournament. So this is pretty much what we emphasise, we want a good coach to be someone who helps players to win and help their confidence and all this. So ex-players sometime we travel on their own could be really good at that. But it's one aspect of being a complete coach. I think once you do all the steps, like you know when working at Academy, and then you go on the road and all this, I think touching everything makes you a bit more all around type of coach. And I think it could be important because at any point, even if you're a top player with the best in the world, when I say Gee, I don't feel my friend online, you have to be able to intervene and teach it in a nice, easy, simple way that the player will say, Okay, I feel it. Well. Thanks. That helps,

Daniel Kiernan  27:01

That's very good. And then if I take you forward then to, I think you said 2007 the year you arrived in the UK?

Louis Cayer  27:08

Yeah, yeah. March 27 2007.

Daniel Kiernan  27:12

My birthday?

Louis Cayer  27:13

Oh, yes. There was. Yeah, I remember well, because that was a big move for me, you know, to leave Canada, at age 55, I was well established there to start completely new life. And that was a big decision. So I remember and I'm very pleased to have done it, by the way.

Daniel Kiernan  27:31

Yeah, it's been it's been an incredible journey. And I think some are very close to my heart. You know, with my, I don't claim to be a world class doubles player. But I was an OK doubles player. I did definitely live with a bit of a feeling of regret for a few few years, because I stopped playing probably 12 months before you arrived in the UK. And I watched all of these guys that I used to beat. All of a sudden, I was like, all of a sudden go what they weren't that good. And they're now like 50 in the world 40 in the world 30 in the world. So So you instantly got got my attention? And I think I mean, we could we could talk for hours about the success that you've had. And I think, you know, we all know, and I think British tennis is forever in debt for what you have done for British tennis. You know, it's it's absolutely incredible. The record speaks for itself. But what I'd love to then get into is what what's that built on? You know, what are the what are the key principles that you've brought in place, because if it very much seems to me, like you have brought a system, which isn't always the easiest thing in the world to do to bring a system somewhere. But it really feels like the player has had to come in and then fit into that system, I'm sure in their in their own individualized way. So can you tell the listeners what the key principles of that system are? Louis?

Louis Cayer  28:52

Yes. This is why I never call it a Louis Cayer system that I call it right away the British doubles system, I wanted that to have a system that will impact the juniors, the senior everybody, men's women's. And it could be called a system because it's all based on space on positioning and movement. And you cover your space very, very nicely, people will think that's quite easy, but it's not that easy. And to do that, that is mostly based on a philosophy that we won't go there to necessarily to win the match because we're going to serve them out, kick them out, we're gonna make them lose the match. Because by creating a lot of uncertainty, with our place and our movement, I think that uncertainty created often anxiety, anxiety, create muscle tension, poor timing and people start to play bad if they're worried that you cross you move. You poach, you squeeze, you fake you disguise, you're moving all this that eventually it keep putting pressure, pressure, pressure and that can make you win the match with what that is. And regarding on space, for example, on the return of serve the serve the receivers partner, never protect the tramline. Or the corridors the alleys, people call that differently. But they never protect until they get beat three times in it. But now it has been 14 years. But many Brits playing it didn't happen 21. And before at the same rule in Canada, that didn't happen. So if it doesn't happen, why should you protect something that doesn't happen. So it makes them like so much more central in their court that if you serve and volley and you see the guy like, almost in the middle of the net, then you tried to volley in the trendline. And if you try too hard, you can miss it. But it doesn't mean that when I say don't cover it, if you're sure that the guy goes there, that you're not allowed to move there. So sometimes you will change to better technique to its, it will be so obvious that you're going towards a trendline, that the guy will just pull back toward the line and just make back to you. And then you feel bad. Because I should I should avoid cross court, then you get used to see him in the middle, you've already cross court, you avoid him once or twice. And then this time you decide to poach, but it's so close to the middle of the court that if you poach. Now he's very effective, it's based on winning 51% of the point not to kill the guy, to make them try a low percentage shot, and to raise our level of anxiety. So they get stressed by by what we do, and how we are and then of course, to always bring high performance energy. And guess what, that was the last speech again with Joe and I praise them on that today to always control the

Daniel Kiernan  31:48

Controllables

Louis Cayer  31:49

So today, even if they were getting like really beat, they kept fighting, they kept playing point by point, they controlled it, keep controlling their energy, their attitude, their intention, it was not enough but it's part of them now will control what we can control our energy or attitude, our mindset, our effort, you know, in our intention that we want to go and that brings you a long way. You know, when we say standard process, what is the process really? Everybody say that don't concentrate on the outcome what is the process but what is the process to control the controllables? One of it is that and I think that's the base I think and when I make a presentation on British doubles system, I put two arrows one is how we develop performers and how we develop them as tennis players. And as a performer is their identity beliefs, values mindset attitude and mental skills. So like let's say a belief no one lobs Brits because we can cross a service line before a lob nobody does this we'll do that where there's a lot of small belief and yeah I like to work at the level of identity which is the your belief in you and the team like have a specific game style, values work ethic, professionalism, excellence, all of this I think if we don't if we're not good at developing a performer we're not really high performance coach because the word say it in itself. I am I performer coach. So what should I coach how to perform in the sport of tennis, so that you teach a tactics and technique relate? Yeah, you have to tackle it both at the same same level performer and tennis players and that's the base of the British system and the tenocyte because we know the positioning the movement will take the middle and all this and a bridge can play with deliberate right away there's no adjustment they play their own game because they have their own strength. But the system of positioning and movement is known by everyone and the marine master at as well as anybody else will play doubles full time. If you

Daniel Kiernan  34:00

Could sort his return out though Louise did all of it. Yeah. But yeah, so if I so let's say me and I stopped playing at 25, I played doubles. You wouldn't have seen me play doubles. Louis, I played doubles. With feel I would say if I'm honest, you know, I did the things that I've learned since from you. I didn't know when I was playing. You know, I was I was feeling a move. I was definitely too close to the tramlines. I had pretty good hands. So I was quite good at picking up a first volley. But actually, it doesn't matter if you hit the low first volley against good guys, it doesn't matter, because they're closing the net on you. You know, but what if I came in, then? Not looking back now? Don't look at me now. Don't tell me anything again. Imagine I was fit. And I came to you at 25, What are the first three, or the three most important things that you're you're teaching me?

Louis Cayer  34:54

Now I will teach you what you need. Right? don't know. So I start with an assessment and You have four roles to play, you have to be a server, you have to be a service partner. And of course after that, you have to be both at the net and the wall to see how well you do. You have to be a returner, or receivers partner. And I always teach first where I could make a quick gains. Okay, you can on technique, let's say if you go if you have to change your grip, I will for sure not start with that. Yeah, I always establish a relationship of trust. So we'll start with things that will make you win. A lot of points quickly. Okay, it could be servers partner, like don't be close to the line could be receivers partner. Look, if you get fascinated from line, you know, the beginning, your new always protected, you look at the new points to say it's your fault, okay, do that. And they realize I've tried to imagine that didn't happen. And they started to have wins that they never had, because their progression is quickly. So again, a lot of trust, because by bringing some modification like serve, go to your spot, because when they serve wide they go to the middle of the court? Yeah, like in singles zone, I'll go go to your spots. So I make very, very quick gain by showing where to position quickly. And it's amazing how many points you win right away just by knowing where to set up the network just as a receivers partner, or to go after your serve. And all this, you win, like, right away. 12, 13 points more right away. Yes, so so much gain. And after that, you can go a bit more into details. So I think I will do the same as I did with every player, I will get you serving because that's important that will say, go there, go there, do this quicker to respond to do that, or whatever, or I will make you practice the four type of serve, like undos, regular, stay regular poach, I restate I post and then the same thing on the ad side. So to practice, like your eight variations of movement, because if you never practice them, you cannot suddenly put a switch on and suddenly make a specific tactics and, and be able to master it. So that's it, I just observe, analyze, and decide what will be best for you to win more points that are very, very short term. Yeah

Daniel Kiernan  37:12

But I'm gonna imagine that you've done all of that with me, Louis, and I'm gonna go to bed tonight, and I'm gonna have some dreams that I was actually, I became a better doubles player than I actually was. Because it's because it's way too late for me now. But that moves me into an expert, because I guess a lot of people listening to this podcast are there'll be some that are involved at a higher level competition level of the sport. But there is also a lot of people listening that, you know, very much a big part of the ecosystem of tennis and club, working in clubs. And, you know, keeping people playing and obviously, doubles is a massive part of that, you know, around the clubs in the UK, but also around the world. And I know, I had this chat with my mother in law, who hopefully if she's listening Hello, Sue. And I actually talked to her about just move your positioning. Just that's it. You know, she plays doubles once or twice a week. And I just said they're not going to pass you in the tramlines. Because that was that was a real fear I had when I played you just kind of naturally think it's gonna go there when they say it doesn't. And she reported back to me that just by shifting slightly closer to the center, it was amazing how many balls ended up on her racket. So can you can you give, can you give the listeners and coaches and people that are playing at club level? Give them one or two little quick tips that can help their doubles?

Louis Cayer  38:34

The first find a good coach

Daniel Kiernan  38:37

Are you available?

Louis Cayer  38:38

Find a very a good coach, who is available because I think first you will probably fit into one of the three major fear. One fear is the fear of getting hit, fear of getting passed fear of getting lobbed when you're on the net. And if you don't address these three basic fear and you have one you will not be as effective. So for me the fear of getting hit. I don't teach people won't see me near but I don't see, like this I accept like to have a back end grips at the ball comes fast on you. You already prepare your cover your body and your cover. Also, if you stretch on your back hand, and you changed your grip for four months, I teach that fear of getting passing the tram line, I make a little competition I put like the four members over there. I say I'll get to it, you're like a nice ball cross court about at the same pace as you do. If you put like the ball in your timeline, over three on 10, like four on 10 You know, three on time, I buy a drink to everybody or whatever it is and they don't succeed. It cannot do it. And I say even less if I mean if the ball is very easy, maybe but if you're a friend anything that looks a bit like attacking a bit like annoying, because it's a bit deeper. It's a bit more please don't Protect it to the middle. But if it's very short and easy, yeah, okay, protect your tramline but not. And they realize, okay, so you have to change our belief about things. And for the lob, I say, on the first serve if you get lobbed. It's okay, your partner will switch because our partner stays back. Yeah, no big deal. And when you're both at the net, I show them where to stand in the wall. And I show them the service line behind. And we make them a little test every time they cross the service line before a lob, which is slow. They never get lobbed. So I tell them look behind afar, is it okay now love crosses the line before and even like, like normal member of cross the line before it don't get lobbed. So you have to break the up to break these fears to be good. Second, this is warrior know you want to talk to a member for the coaches, stop having people serve and volley everything, man and woman, there was about 90, 95% of the woman stay back on their serve. And now 55% Of the men stayed back on their five now is it every year, it goes up, there's more and more singles players playing. So why would you force me like me, and now if I go in their club, to train in the go for speed to certain volume, my knee won't take it, you know, let me serve and stay back. And if people are afraid to get it, you know, I cannot see. Most of a lot of people play both back now. Let them play ball back, and then serve and stay back. And let's let's show them how to win when you stay back on your serve, or your bowl back on the return. And this is all fine. Now the players do all these variations. So that's it. So respect the members and new members of a coach who will ask for help you to go past the fear of getting passed getting hit and getting lobbed. And you're gonna be very effective in doubles.

Daniel Kiernan  41:56

Very good advice, Louis. And to pick you up on that it was actually something I wanted to talk to you about. You've brought it up there is about the serving and staying back. And I knew it was around 50%. I didn't realize it the men's game would have gotten to 55. The weapons as high as 90, 95. How much have you had to evolve the way that you coach on the back of that, because I guess that that changes that changes lots of things, when you're teaching players

Louis Cayer  42:25

might change a lot like, for example, Jamie start to chip and charge like us in the club or in singles. Because if the guys stay back, you will not stay back and start to battle, especially if they're on do side that Trini will battle against the best singles players in the world and their friends. And he will go on his back. And why should he do that? He does that. Second? Yeah, we start to introduce a lot of different tactics. Yeah, there's a lot of tactics and forebode back, we put a rule for example, never never volley twice in a row to the forehand. It's like it could be like simple, but go go reach the backhand because the backhand, even if it's steady. Normally there's less resolution on the ball more or less shape. There's it's a bit flatter. So there it's easier to volley. And we have developed I remember doing a camp. It was six, seven years ago, the team was let's beat those that singles players. So let's beat these guys when they bought back we're gonna volley on the do side back and guys, you will have no angles back and then we'll do that. We'll do this we'll do that. So yeah, I have to redesign a lot of the patterns because up until even 2010 Someone was serving and staying back you will look like what are you doing, you know, and suddenly it started for you. And it when it when it crossed the pivotal like 20% Like if you reach that tipping point, there's always a number where people start to say, Oh, it's fine to do that. And it has helped people to stay back to not feel forced, like Neal Skupski. He will serve and volley first serve, but he felt very comfortable and not inadequate to serve and stay back on his second serve and smack his forehand. But if he was 10 years ago, you would be criticized

Daniel Kiernan  44:15

He would be a sissy what you do in your sissy you don't stare back. It was very, it was very much like that. When I Louis I remember I went it was probably back in 2004. I played a Challenger event in Barcelona, on the clay and I actually I actually signed up for partner wanted, I thought quite nice to go to Barcelona. You know, I signed up and I ended up playing with to Teymuraz Gabashvili Yeah, and we drew Andre Sa, Levinsky first round who were both about top 50 At the time that you know we turned up and Gabashvili it was my first experience playing with someone who served and stayed back and we lost the first set Six one. And I didn't really know what was happening. I was like, he was like I was stood there. And then he sat down at change of ends. And I said, Come on, we can, you know, we can do this, too. I didn't know I'm really and he just said, and he really spoke to me in quite strong Russian accent. No, we take what? One point 1.1 point at a time. And he then honestly hit winner after winner for two for two sets, and I just have to knock a couple of volleys off. And I thought, wow, this is like, this is the future. This is amazing. So couple of days later, we played against Fernando Vicente and Oscar Hernandez, who were both top 100 singles guys, centre court Barcelona. It was the worst 45 minutes of my life. It was three players at the back of the court and me at the net. And you talk about trying to find their backhand. I don't think they hit one backhand in the match. I don't know if you don't remember Vicente was very talented and skillful with the forehand, and ask him that there's just like smacked heavy, heavy forehands. And it was we lost six love. And I think it was six for the second set, it was a bit more respectful. But it was just I wanted the ground to swallow me up. So the ability to adapt to that is something that certainly I felt as a player. And I'm sure like you say, as a coach, you've had to do that as well.

Louis Cayer  46:26

Yeah, one thing that is important on that, because I've been in the club some time and observing, and the coach asks the member, when the servers say back to go to the net, go to the service line, go to the net, go to the service line, this is impossible. So at the beginning the doubles players when they were dealing with that they didn't know what to do. So So I think what is very important I, I give them a system throughout to move when the ball goes back and forth across. Yep. If if their rally hit the place pretty much neutral. So you stay in the wall position, you don't go close to the net, you don't go to the service line, you just stay more or less there, you set a bid toward the middle to give your chance or your partner to hit the ball down the line. Yeah, and you move a bit there. As soon as it's an attacking shot, sort of stuff that you move closer to net. Yeah. And if it's a defensive shot really short, and the guy will attack you, you can back up to the service line and then defend your tramline Yes, and let the guy because you protect your tramline at cross court because your friend at the baseline will have much more chance to deal with it than you if the ball is smacked at you. So it's a it's tough for your the people who's listening right now because you don't see it. But it's so simple system don't don't close to the net unless it's an attacking shot. If it's there troll stay pretty much on the wall position which is a bit in between the net and and just move a bit to your right or to your left. And if you're in defense because you're gonna attack just retrieve back to the your own service line a bit closer to the tram line. And after that, read what's going on after that. Very good. running back and forth like crazy. It's not an option.

Daniel Kiernan  48:09

You do see it and you see it all the time with you see people like headless chickens. Yeah, because

Louis Cayer  48:15

I'd come and go I've got back back back. For poor members, you know, they get their there. They just cannot follow. But the nice thing is they don't have to do that.

Daniel Kiernan  48:27

Yeah, it's like cardio tennis. Exactly. Cardio tennis session. But yeah, the one of the ones and I know you talk a lot about this, and I would be a big believer in this is what what's the best way to be a good doubles player, pick the right partner. Yeah. And you know, and in terms of in terms of that, one thing that always fascinates me, Louie is. And I remember the Brian brothers saying this that every December, I've gone into January Australian Open, they felt as if they ended up being the best team in the world, because so many people had split up at the back end of the year before. And they kind of took their time getting to know each other. And then the last half of the year, they felt like teams started to really catch them up and maybe overtake them. And it just seems like there's so many changes so often. I guess there's there's lots to talk about on this. But how are people? How do you pick the right partner? To start with?

Louis Cayer  49:24

It's difficult, because sometimes it's based on pure business. You want to do the masters? Yeah, no, the masters like Formula One enough. That is 1000 points, a lot of money. This is work. And if you're if your ranking is 30, even if the nicest guy, let's say Johnny O'Mara is very nice. Everybody likes him. He's good, good player too. But if his ranking is 60, and you're 30 if you play with him, you cannot play the Masters because that cut is about 55 to 30 plus six days 90, you won't play in it. So you have to find a guy in the top 30. So that's not a lot of people. Yeah, then if you're the outside player, you have to find the do side player. Okay, so now suddenly, you've got right away almost in two. So you have about 10, 15. Some teams are already established, so you don't, okay to put it simple, you don't have that much choice. Sometime you pick up someone and you try to make it work. Or you try to find someone to come combine your your strength, like, for example, Jamie Murray, because we both know him very well, it was giving us more on on volume. So you will, you will want to have a partner like Neal Skupski, or Bruno can return the ball quite hard, so that he can impose interceptor volley and more shine at the net. And if you play with someone who would not return art, for example, and then the guy will return to hard, don't mind that Jamie lobs a lot, because it creates a lot of variation. One guy is lobbing. On one side, the other guy, it's hard on the other side, you know, you don't give a written, Jamie's sort of lefty, the other guy sort of writing. So you don't have as much choice as you may think. Because you have to choose in a very small bracket. And after that, you have two choices. Either you get along well with the guy and you go have lunch, often you have a social time where you don't get along with the guy, and there's no social activity, and you just meet on the court for the warm up and the match. And you play as a business and why as business partner. And these things are those who will split more often because as soon as the business isn't that good. They want to change that was easy to find a good one. And this is why I think why I'm very, quite good as I coach a team, I see coaching double as coaching three people a coach or do side player, the outside player and the team in which way the recycler will set up the outside Yes, and so on and so on. And if you start to develop a team, a team identity, team, tactics team and everything is team not always that team has a main focus, you create a bit that bonding and that that special thing that they may stay together longer. Because it could not just be based on liking each other or know is a lot of time they come from different culture, you know, like, like Bruno, for example, is Brazilian this or Rajiv is American and is a British and they have different culture, different interests, maybe in sports, they have different, they're different. So so I have to find a common ground and the common ground is the team identity and to develop a lot of a real team approach that makes them stick and bound together.

Daniel Kiernan  52:41

Yeah, well, Jamie looks like a different person, in my opinion, on court with Bruno than he did on court with Neil you know, I went to the Davis Cup tie in Marbella when GB played Spain and Jamie played with Dobby Inglot and you could just see that it didn't connect maybe it was a CT surface thing maybe it was a personality thing maybe it was a game style thing, but it does seem to be very very micro level to the individual on what's going to work

Louis Cayer  53:12

Yes yeah. So I would not say like get towards whatever everyone bring oh yeah bring I'll bring is it was not just the level of play because they'll serve as art yeah turn as art volleys spectacular. In that case it was mostly I think Bruno is Brazilian is very chill. Yeah, and I think I think Jamie needs something like like that besides experience so where you could like pump in all this and I don't know. Just like he feels it's a good match. Yeah. Yeah, it's nothing to do like something blood serves well you know, it's good player and it was good player but it was good player. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. When you find someone that match then you you stick with him. Now. He has played three years with Bruno so he knows his game right away. But when they start it was not like looking to know each other so they won right away Melbourne and make destiny so they play indeed well so and even maybe the split was good because they they have learned to appreciate what everyone was bringing to the team and now they know what each bring to the team so there will be no just expectation not even know I hope he does that. I expect it as that and I know he won't do that. So you know what the guy brings to the team you accept it and you go for it.

Daniel Kiernan  54:33

And how does that work with because I believe Bruno's got his own coach as well. Yeah, so how does that then work with you coming in? Is there any any ever any conflict between coaches?

Louis Cayer  54:45

That never happens? I'll touch one. Okay never happened. And many situation let's say like even Jamie travel this time Colin was there because Alan McDonald congratulation Alan nice Okay, so like, Jamie will be with Alan, and Bruno would be with Hugo. And me i Come. So who I'm coaching, I'm coaching the team. Okay. And Bruno will see me as helping him to, okay, if you talk to Rajeev, you will see me as helping to, because I'm helping the team. So it's hard for me to help the team without giving advice to Bruno without being giving advice to Rajeev without giving advice to any British partners. So so they see me as coaching the team. I do have a reputation because I'm on the tour since 1987 Or to travel and start to be with the leading doubles teams since even 1990 Maybe 91 And all this the Canadian we're doing very very well. So I have a bit the reputation and they kind of let me not control but charge of the team and but I will not go correct for example the serve or whatever technique the coach will do that but I could say I would like to serve a bit more wide for example, you what I will not do I will just do that the team and and that goes very well. I'll touch what like I said but and and yeah and present the older British coach our British players to Rob Morgan with Joe like, and George Morgan with them and Luke and that Tony with Johnny O'Mara so so everybody, we are really in the British family, not British players, Coach by British coaches.

Daniel Kiernan  56:29

Is your communication now more directly with the players or more directly with those coaches that are spending the time with the players?

Louis Cayer  56:37

It's with both? Yeah, when I travel, it's obviously with both. And we discuss this and now that with that invention with Zoom, like every morning with the timeframe, I was meeting different team at nine o'clock am it was like 8pm Okay, so between nine and 12 I was meeting different team, we go with their match, make, identify, go through the videos, we talked with their coach and the players, I make them some questions looks what happened in your what do you think should have done I Ashra. So we do a lot of like, interactive assessment and then we say okay, next practice, do a bit more this and that. And that's it. But like I say, my relationship with their coaches are excellent, like right now even calling helping Jamie and coach Colin like many years, so it makes life very easy. And wherever it was like Potter coach, like even when Luke play with that doesn't apply again, this roster, they were really fine to let me lead the team with that. So hopefully it stays like this , I won't get to age where you start to lack respect and take over the hill. But right now, right now, up here, everything goes pretty well. And, of course, I respect them. Because if I was lacking respect and bullying, it will not work. So absolutely send in your opinion, I think I would prefer a recommend. So I'll take I think using empowering, empowering words are important both for the players or for the coach. So if I coach you, I would say, if you're going into that match, it may be preferable than you may consider looking at the possibility of and self IDs and said I want you to you have to you must you need, which are not at all empowering. So as long as I talked like this with their coaches, and to the players, I think I create a good energy and good synergy and it's going well.

Daniel Kiernan  58:40

Very good. And in terms of the game of doubles, and all we've we've touched on more staying back now more servers stay back. What What other things do you see that are changing and doubles right now?

Louis Cayer  58:55

I think more people know how to play doubles. It's funny because then because they stay back they don't know how to play doubles. How the singles paradigm almost everybody know how to do the I formation. Almost everybody knows that. A lot of people know the basic play like if you serve if you want people to have to hit cross court and take the middle approach to serve jump for n or T if you want them to have a hard time to across what you serve, jump back in or wide. Add these basic tactics that was known 10 years ago just by a few elite doubles players. Yes, the knowledge is there. Everybody knows that. So everybody plays smarter doubles. Yeah, I think just a lot of people know how to play doubles now. Yeah, double specialists. They have tougher competition. And especially the singles players, those who had hard with their groundstrokes have zero complex and they have learned how to construct the points to to do better if they feel the close a bit too much. And that they will love they will do this a Yeah. I think the level is very strong. It's tough.

Daniel Kiernan  59:56

Do you think it's got more boring to watch because of that? They go especially indoor doubles they got a quicker court doubles. You hear people talking about it and I can I can see it that it's it is a little bit serve return knock off a volley. You know you don't you don't maybe see as many exciting points on the on the on the indoor court in particular, the quicker courts are now

Louis Cayer  1:00:18

Maybe on the court, but I think it was a bit the opposite. In 2000. I stopped traveling one year, because I promised that and I was traveling already for 13 years. So after I finished being Davis Cup captain, I'll stay at home with my ex wife and I say well do something else. And I became manager of a big club and I went back to coach at Hunter clubs, all the underdogs. And I say oh my god, it's so much more exciting to coach. This was the older woman's League and all this there's a fact there's love bliss point flow go forever. And the matter of fact, I think that contrast of styles make double more interesting. Because the end of 2000 is every imagine what do you serve and volley serve volleys or volley serve volley now serves the bag big drive love this this approach. I think there's so much variation if you go into a match. Personally, I think doubles is more exciting now than it was there's more variation, much more things is happening. Okay. And because they play both back, there is also much more like a longer rally. Because when you're at the service line, you either make a steal, or the point is over but now Scouting is much more difficult, right? Like I say, sculpt the do sides cut the outsides cut the team, what is their strength each individually what is their strength at the team? What did they do what they don't do? In the past it was everybody played the same now. And it's for me much more work but much more enjoyable also,

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:50

When you talk about scouting, how much of the Scouting is is objective scouting. So taking data you know that this is you know, they make X amount of or when x amount of points when you serve to the backhand or body backhand or forehand and how much is it? Is it about moments, you know that real kinda like Coach's Eye coaches feel that in the moment. In the moment, this player isn't so brave, or in the moment, you know, you can get on top of this guy with your energy. You know, how do you get the balance of that when it comes to scouting?

Louis Cayer  1:02:26

I'll answer right away with the last thing regarding your energy. If I say okay, if you play Roger, if you played this, these guys are very aware that they put the energy stream and all this and that it affect the energy of the other team. So I make them aware, okay, we're going to do this that match up with the energy. So they will match up that they will not get intimidated by energy. So I will point out as cutting then when I Scout I don't count also what they do, because that's quite easy. I coach ice cutter a lot, but they don't do okay. It says what people don't realize that they think anticipation is to know what people will do. It is a part of anticipation, but it's hard to know exactly what they will do. But sometime you can find out a lot what they won't do. And that's kind of important because if you know a guy will never never love for example, you can be closer. If you know the guide never is there are never answers jump back and learn or never do this or a second shot. You never do that. Whatever it is, or they never post on the second serve, or they never do this. That's important knowledge to give to the players. Absolutely. And yeah, if they're not brave itI know once and the it was a nervous couple of them that say against which theme because then the player will know what I'm talking about. That guy is that brave Jamie. If you go break point for short poach, you will never dare to try to pass you. And then being disingenuous poaching, bang, bang, and it works so well. But Andy was feeling these things and played his game about being brave enough on this. So you thought you talked about who they are as performers, who they are as players. And I encounter a lot of what they don't do those were useful, but sometime we upstarts like we have, we build up PBI which is all the stats match after emerge building up so for example, we watch at Polasek on do site serving to Joe was poaching about 90% of the time we say that to Joe Polasek poach 100% of the time today. And even if he knew it cannot do much more to serve us to make position to be exceeding one point. But at least he was aware it's not like he goes he was surprised that the guy poach a lot. will say he's going to poach like almost all the time and he posts all the time.

Daniel Kiernan  1:04:39

But I think that points important, Louis that I think you can give information but ultimately, if the server isn't good enough if someone doesn't execute something good enough, your your information isn't gonna work isn't gonna work. And I think that's important for coaches and players to know as well.

Louis Cayer  1:04:57

Yeah, but like I say, I think the cliche If you better have a game plan going into it and get doesn't guarantee to win, yes, or absence of game plan will make you lose or will make you panic or make you worry or make you. Because you need clarity of mind at least, Joe, it was clear what he was trying to do was clear but could not execute it. But if he didn't know what to expect if he had to worry about what's going on. Also, if he didn't have clarity of mind, also, then that would have been even worse, it would have been one of the one that results. So I think it's good to go with that game plan. But now I have learned over the years, that when you scout especially the tournament, that team you didn't know. And you just see the ones I say, and that match against these guys, they have done that. Because let's say you like play quarters against the quarters, they all returned cross court all day long. Because nobody voted on do I. Suddenly I said oh, they never return line. Now they play Brett's word reputation to poach a lot. What do they start the match the return line all the time to freeze the net player? And they look at me say that never at line. Yeah. But on that match against guys who were not poaching. They didn't feel they have to against the wall. So I've learned over the years, I always say that on that match against these guys. It says what happened but against you, they may do something else. But let's start with that. And let's see what happened. But I always give them the full right of do whatever you feel is the right thing to do. Yeah, always make an effort to use these empowering words I talked to you before because I really believe that bottom line, it's them on their court exam, we will make the decision the play and they have to adapt like you say at the moment. And if the people have already when the first set six while in the opening tab to change something. Yeah. So if they change something you have to adapt to not lose the second set so they have complete freedom to adapt.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:55

How does this statement make you feel Louie? Louie Cayer is a world class doubles coach.

Louis Cayer  1:07:04

Well, why don't order I find coaching doubles much more complicated than coaching singles. The tactics involved in doubles the level of patterns you need to master because of the lack of time. Like I say you coach, like three you coach the do side add side and the team three players like three parts, three identities against three identities. So it's like six things going on. And the puzzle, you juggle with all that you develop team chemistry, peak performance for the team and each individually. And tactics, it's so much more complicated. Those who don't appreciate doubles because they don't know the levels. They don't understand that I feel my skills of coaching doubles as to be so much higher. And then of course when you coach even technique, you have two guys. And in my case, if you have like many doubles team, I think it's very, very demanding. And I did Coach singles people sometimes don't know, but I coach nine players that became top 100, you know, that I developed. So I did do a lot of singles. And I was Davis Cup captain for many years dealing with singles player, so and I work with the Fed Cup seven years and I worked with the juniors. So I work with everything and I work with a regression player. I think I'm simply a coach. I think I'm an effective coach by his on my track record, who has decided to specialize a bit in doubles. And also my stickers, I was coach of number one and doubles or coach have a single single, top 50. So which label was more appealing even for the LTA Federation? And number one, or a top 50? So they choose number one, they say could you make a difference in doubles for our country? We are rated about how many top 100 players we produce. Could you give up two doubles players in the top 100 Yeah, because when I arrived, they didn't have a top 100 players for the last seven years. The last was in 2000.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:05

So I was British number one at 150

Louis Cayer  1:09:08

Yeah, I know when I arrived at the best was James clear at 130 Yeah, so there's no there was none. So I say yes. So I think I'll do that too. And then by since then, I think 12 1314 I'm not so sure.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:22

But do you feel I mean, I know that and I said to you off air on this as well that we genuinely for me. You are You are the best. Certainly one of the best coaches in the world of tennis, you know and I would I would absolutely not put it down to singles, doubles anything of tennis. You know, I think you You're incredible in in everything you do on that. So do you feel sometimes disrespected that you've completely that you can get pigeonholed over there? Or is it just kind of wash over you?

Louis Cayer  1:09:54

If I would have been as my life being affected with plenty pulsate think and all this, you know, like, like, if I tell you I use that analogy quite often, then I don't like your green hair, they're terrible. You're gonna laugh because you know, you don't have green hair. So he will say What makes you say that, you know, like I had it was a reflect on the lights, whatever. So when people say you're not a good coach, you just go juggles. It makes me smile, I think they're getting your end, I think a good coach is a good coach and to develop peak performance. At the same time with two different players going into a match and stuff like this. You need a lot of human skills, you don't need a lot of coaching skills, and no, just just a year IKEA. I know very much. It's like men, singles, woman singles, men's doubles and woman's doubles in that order. A male coach will be more early regarding a female coach, and in general, and there's that hierarchy and I don't know why. And after that, it goes to junior boys under 18. Junior girls under 14 goes like there's a big year archy. But the coach with the juniors under 18, who has developed them from scratch 14 Bring him to number one the world and they're 18 could be a fantastic coach. But he was the leader, a bass player who had the chance to go right away on the tour with a top player. But who knows? So me doesn't really matter, honestly. I just think okay, thanks wherever you think whatever you want. I know who I am. And I will not be affected by what people would say,

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:32

Louis, I thought you said, Dan, it looks like you've got lots of gray hair. And I was and I looked at and I looked at myself in the mirror to this morning, I thought for this gray hairs getting more and more. So you've actually just hit a nerve with me then. I was like the cheese actually, right? I am looking a lot older.

Louis Cayer  1:11:52

I will say red arrow.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:55

In terms of singles, Louis, do you do you watch a lot of singles still are you would you say you keep up with the trends of singles.

Louis Cayer  1:12:03

I tried to look at that, of course. But honestly, the the time that requires me, of course, all the doubles match. There's a lot of doubles players. Then after that it's not over after I watch it, I have to analyze it, bringing in a software, make comments on it, then I have to observe the openings, they will play in all this. It takes so many hours. And it's not done that I have to assess the National Academy. Meeting with them. I have to assess the coaching with Nyquil. And I'm involved with different things. So there's so much when I watch I do like it's I do like to watch the highlights. Because you capture pretty much get the highlights of the match. Like even today, I watch out for highlights of singles matches. I will like if it's live to watch the last set. I will try to watch the key moments of the match and that that sit down from 00 for Saturday to five sets set. Yeah, because I simply don't have the time. But yes, of course I like it. Yeah, yeah, I like to still watch whatever after a while, you know, it's it's quite tough because even though he was trying to open I was even also watching the mixed doubles. Yeah, of course, as your players as few players working it. So there's just so much time in a day. But to answer your question, yes, of course, I'm very interested with singles woman, and I tried to watch as much as I can, but I'm trying to be more selective.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:29

My last topic is is coaching and coaching coaches and I know you've spent spent a lot of time doing doing that as well. And you know, we talk about a you talk about and I've stolen your terminology I now talk about it like this as well that with a tennis player, we have the performer and then we have the tennis player to take care of the performer first and I'll just share a little quote that I like the from Theodore Roosevelt so "people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care" and how much I guess I use that same thing of being a performer before you can get your knowledge across the tennis player bit across to the to the to the to the players how how important is that side of things for a coach Yeah,

Louis Cayer  1:14:19

So now okay with the National Academy and overall with the LTA we introduce like a three P the person the performer and the player and a lot of support now I've been with the leaders they do conference in the invest a lot in the person they have a performance advisor people counselors because they say if a guy come yes problem with his mortgage and all this it will affect performance. So anyway, in many many professional sports, they have people specialize to help the person so that segment people care what you know and they know that you care for me as to relate with the person is to the law. Have you sat relate to the performer yet? Yes, but you've loved that trust? I think I have not, I think I had long, very good longevity with players. You know, like, I do, I don't change player like every year or two, when I started to play, as I said, a long time. Because if they feel that I care for them, if they feel I really believe in them, and if they feel systematic, in my weight for goal setting, that they are constantly improving with me, why would they leave me? No, there's, there's no reason to keep improving, I believe in them, and I care about them. So that's a person and I, they have to be happy, they have to be that at the Academy, we check, you know, we have someone, if they're stressed at school, it will affect your training. So we have really tried to take care of the person first. Because it affects the performer performer. We use the analogy, I took it from Sanchez Castle, one of their conference, head art and lakes, you know, had this like the mental or the emotional start, I guess. And like I said before, the entity believes values, if you don't have work ethic, you won't even train art. So forget the good, you're going to succeed, you cannot succeed without working hard. So all these values, these beliefs are important. And so we have that, that's it. So to make it short, three P's, person, performer, player, and it's almost in that order, because if someone makes a burnout or stuff like this, or mental health tissues, which is a topic becoming very common and popular now, it's not a taboo anymore. If they have big mental tissues, you know, it will affect everything. It will affect a performer for sure. So a person, performer player, and yeah, and once you say like people care what you know, and they know that you care, it's absolutely true. It has to be a genuine care, not a fake care.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:53

Yeah. And actually, I remember what Ken skupski his wedding. And at the time, I knew you a little bit but didn't didn't probably have a close relationship with you. I'd met you a couple of times, Louis, and that really hit me that night, actually, how, how close you were to all of those guys. And I remember, you know, you were leaving, I think you were leaving as the dancing was starting. And you know, and when you were saying goodbye to the guys, and as Ross Hutchins, Colin Fleming, Ken, you know, all of these guys it was they were they were really it was like they were saying goodbye to you know, someone very close to them, you know that and that did. I guess my only experience I'd had with you up until then, as you were abusing my feeds and some conference that I'd done. And you did it you quite an intimidating character, you know, when you when you first meet you, I think because your standards are so high, I think you can come across in quite an intimidating way. And when I saw that say to you with that with the players, it all made sense to me, you know, and obviously, as I've got to know you more and more, you know, I see that side come through a lot. But the one bit, but I will do want to pick up on with you as well, let me because I think coaches can be guilty of just hiding behind taking care of the person and not actually improving them. We but but we can't forget that our job as as tennis coaches is to speed up the improvement and to help them to win to win more, you know, and obviously, that's something that your record speaks for itself on that. But just that is one that I sometimes when when we talk about person first, I think there is people out there that can say, Oh, that's a bit fluffy. That's a bit flat, you know, what you mean person first, you know, yeah, we're in this business to win win in this business to for you to improve my child. And I think it's obviously having having the performer in there and having having the player in there. That has to be done very well. We can't just hide behind being a nice person to people because, you know, that's not what people are paying the money for ultimately as tennis coaches.

Louis Cayer  1:19:04

Yeah, no. But you know, it became less fluffy the person because the last three, four years the issue of mental health is very, very strong everywhere. We cannot ignore that anymore. We can just push, push, push, push. Sometimes you talk to the parents when you say, okay, come on my boy or my girl, you know, I gotta go there and you gotta win this match right ain't gonna win. They say what do you want the child to answer? You know, I don't I won't win or I don't know that or mom. You know, the boy or the girl say yeah, yeah, yeah, put so much pressure on that. Because you don't know if you're gonna win. If it's a matchup you don't know it's it comes down to few points, you clutch points. And you don't know you put tremendous so just go there and give your best effort to know. Again, we start with that control the controllables just go there give your best effort that as long as they give their best effort and all this you know, you praise your child and that's that's all. So just to support their journey make it enjoyable and Not project yourself into your child and project your sense of words with their winning, you know, like just a support them and you have to feel free like if he's your child say I want to stop that you feel fine with it as long as they because you're, you develop a lot through a sport to develop a lot of values, a lot of discipline a lot of a lot of good things. So yeah, I think it's yeah, it's very important to make it enjoyable. All the training camp, we have two key words, enjoyment and improvement. Okay, work hard, play smart. These are the four the four key words, work hard play smart. So work hard for the training, play sports is when the play points, enjoyment without improvement, we don't want that we don't want to be like, the old like in the club that just rah rah rah. And we don't want improvement to the detriment of enjoyment. So as long as we keep these four words, in original training, and all this, it will be good. So again, in their word to be said, work hard, play smart, and enjoy and improve. And if the coach respect these things, I think you can do good work just with that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:13

And listeners, what a way to finish before we go to the quick fire round. This is from a multiple, multiple, multiple Grand Slam winning coach, many, many number ones in the world, and that message of control the controllables is still coming through very, very, very loud and clear. You know, and I think to have that weight to that message coming from someone who has won so much, you know, to still be able to you know, bring it back to that to that place I think is really important. So Louis, you you have been an absolute star as always it's such a it's such a pleasure for me to to have you on the show and to spend this time with you so, so thank you, but you don't get away without the quickfire round. So So are you ready? Okay, ready, singles or doubles.

Louis Cayer  1:22:06

Doubles fascinating.

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:08

Feeding or hitting.

Louis Cayer  1:22:12

At my age feeding

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:15

i for the Asian or normal for the

Louis Cayer  1:22:18

Asian high formation more uncertainty.

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:21

Poach or stay

Louis Cayer  1:22:24

Poach more excitement,

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:26

Return down the line or return crosscourt

Louis Cayer  1:22:30

Return down the line brings again uncertainty.

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:33

Davis Cup or ATP cup.

Louis Cayer  1:22:37

Davis Cup more transition.

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:40

Three or five sets for males at grand slams.

Louis Cayer  1:22:46

Five sets for singles, five sets for doubles. Like Wimbledon.

Daniel Kiernan  1:22:51

And who's going to be the next first time Grand Slam champion from Great Britain.

Louis Cayer  1:23:04

Okay, come on join. I can't heal your injury, get focused and go with Islam.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:11

You did like it in doubles? Do you prefer three full sets or a tie break third set to full set? Should should players be allowed allowed an injury timeout of the court or not? Yes. What's one rule change that you would have in tennis?

Louis Cayer  1:23:36

Wow. Wow, that was a coach. They're doing it in a woman I would like to be able to do it in the men to like, you know, like, one one set of ages. I said why not? You know, so many sports, they have that intervention of coach one and put a set at least would be a good start for the mentor.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:57

You would have some serious impact on some of those doubles matches louia.

Louis Cayer  1:24:01

Maybe, maybe

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:03

with that 90 seconds. Who should our next guest be on the podcast?

Louis Cayer  1:24:11

I don't know the name. But I would like to bring a good pedagogue because a lot of thing is about coaching. And it's surprising I went to every ITF conference almost I didn't do last one since 1987. And it's all about coaching. It's coaches and they never really bring people about coaching. How do you really accelerate the learning curve of someone? How do you how do you improve the learning? How do you communicate in a way that whatever it is, we rarely talk about how to accelerate the learning curve how people learn how to enhance learning and all this in a Yeah, no personnel would like to listen to that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:24:52

Great if you have any names come up or anyone's listening then let us know. And we'll we'll get them on the show. But ya know, Louis A big, big thank you on behalf of myself, but also all the listeners who are gonna take so much from that as as always from yourself. We really appreciate your time. Thank you.

Louis Cayer  1:25:10

Thank you very much for inviting me to your podcast all the best and a big

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:14

thank you to Louie Kaya for coming on the show. It was such good timing to have him on to really shine a spotlight on to the British tennis double system that he's done such an amazing job of the last 14 years. And to bring Vicky into the conversation. Is your mind blown enough listening to all of that tennis knowledge?

Victoria Kiernan  1:25:35

I think I need to go back with a notepad pen. Listen to it all again. It's the first episode actually, that I actually wished that I could have seen him with like charts, diagrams videos, of course, there was just so much information to be taken from that episode.

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:52

Ya know, there really wasn't. And I mean, I've known Louis for many years, and anyone in the world of tennis, but certainly in British tennis would have come across him. I think he's helped shape many coaching philosophies, including my own, you know, and it's his wealth of knowledge. But what actually came out for me was as knowledgeable as he is, he's still able to recognize that knowledge isn't any fun, without building the relationships with the players. And and I think that came through really loudly and clearly.

Victoria Kiernan  1:26:26

Yeah, and not just building the relationships with the players. But I also liked the way he said he spoke to them as well. And their coaches if they had their own coach using those empowering words, as he called them. Yeah, he

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:37

was he was a big advocate of control the controllables, wasn't he and that was, that was quite nice. I think there was, there was three or four occasions that he that he said it. And he very much linked into it. And it's massive on the philosophy we have as an academy that we have as a podcast of you are ultimately in control of yourself. But you're not in control of lots of different external things out there. So you know how prepared you are Hannah, and you very much get the idea that his players, you're walking on that court with complete preparation. And I love the analogy used on the the jaw Salisbury final at the Australian Open, he told him that they were going to probably cross and try and poach on him for 95% of points. And Joe knew it was going to happen. But they actually did it 100% of points. And he said, Look, Joe, there was nothing Joe could do about it on the day. But they, they were all care because they've done everything in their control. And there's something very comforting about that. And, you know, having Louis Kaya in your corner, must really give you that extra bit of comfort for these doubles, guys.

Victoria Kiernan  1:27:46

And what really surprised me with the stats for number of people who serve and volley. How few doubles players are actually doing it now. Yeah. And

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:55

I think he said it was 55% on the men's tour and something like 90% on the women's tour. And even going back to my playing days, which is not that long ago. I know it's 15 years ago, it was almost unheard of that you served and stared back. And I think it's another great one for us as coaches who there's some some of us think we know it all. And we don't you know, Louis, Kaya is 68 years old. He's learning all the time. He's adapting his ways to the way that the game is. And he's trying to stay ahead of the trends. And yeah, what a real treat to talk to him.

Victoria Kiernan  1:28:32

Yeah, and that's just one of three awesome episodes this week to Marcus reaching 100 episodes on control the controllables we've had so much feedback from the NIC voluntary episode. That's episode 100. If you haven't had a chance, listen to that yet. That is an absolute must we how many messages have you had from people just saying Hey, baby,

Daniel Kiernan  1:28:53

I'm not sure I've ever been called baby so many times in a week. It's certainly it's captured the imagination and I think, like it was a different one. You know, and I think I've heard a few people say, it was a very difficult chat for myself. And it wasn't it wasn't, you know, because I guess to have the opportunity to speak to such a legend of our game and speak to him on the phone in advance of doing the podcast. But yes, it this one was Louie chi, uh, you guys are really taken away, you know, some proper in depth knowledge of the game. And I think with Nick, it was entertaining. It was you know, it was full of, you know, lots of lots of different cliches, lots of different anecdotes that you can you can take away and and be highly motivated from, but it's certainly abroad a few I have to shout out to Jimmy Nelson, who he sent me about five voice notes now talking about baby and gee whiz and Richard Williams and you know, all of these things. So I thank you for your feedback. I'm pleased that it has captured your imagination and You know we will continue to bring these guests to you.

Victoria Kiernan  1:30:03

We've also had lots of people reaching out on our Instagram and Facebook one here from rose tennis 2018 saying congratulations Dan and saucer tennis on the 100th episode. I've been listening from the start whilst on the morning lockdown runs love the content and relaxed honest nature of each episode. For all players, parents, coaches and tennis sport fans, I highly recommend listening to these podcasts. Keep up the great work.

Daniel Kiernan  1:30:29

All very nice. Thank you for your words. I've also seen we've had, it's like every time we get a new review on Apple podcasts. It's like Christmas dares come. I don't know if that helps, but everybody on podcast seem to say that it does. So if you do spare 30 seconds a minute to do that. Rate us and review us.

Victoria Kiernan  1:30:49

And we can't leave without mentioning our 100th Episode giveaway that's running over on our soccer tennis Instagram page. To celebrate the release of the 100th episode this week of control the controllables we're giving one lucky listener the chance to win a soccer tennis online course of your choice. So back during the first lockdown, we created several programs and courses. To help let's keep moving continue learning continue improving their game through the pandemic. And if you fancy winning one of the courses, just head on over to our Instagram page at saucer tennis and find the 100th podcast giveaway post to find out how to enter I'm also going to put the details of how you can do that as well in this episode show notes. So good luck if you're gonna enter. Good luck

Daniel Kiernan  1:31:33

to all of you who are entering the competition. I am off to prep for the recording of our next guest, which is a really special guest again born a courage. Number 24 in the world beat as high as 12 in the world. I've got some questions up my sleeve for him our hobbies game to really get into some insight. And we'll be bringing that to you in the next couple of days. But until then, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are control the controllables