#180: Lloyd Glasspool & Harri Heliovaara on their Journey to the ATP Finals

DISCLAIMER: Please note we use a transcription service, so there may be some errors in the following transcription of this episode. If you can, please refer to the audio for exact quotations. 

Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 180 of control the controllables. And today we have the fifth best doubles team in the world in 2022.

Harri Heliovaara  00:21

This year has been so easy we just go from win to win don't have to overthink anything, everything happens easily like by itself. Next year, we are going to lose matches that's going to be it happens to everybody just have to accept that. But the good thing is that we're still 11 and 12 We can still continue the way up. So we still have 10 More players ahead of us. So we haven't haven't made it to number one yet. So we can we can still go on and just enjoy the the rise.

Daniel Kiernan  00:53

And for anyone that is followed tennis this year on the ATP tour. I think everyone will have a smile when they think of Harry Haliovaara and Lloyd Glasspool as they've gone from being ATP challenger players to making their way to the ATP tour finals last week in Turin. And when you watch them, you see Lloyd walking around, as if he's not gotta care in the world. As Harri is celebrating with the masses. They really are chalk and cheese. They've had an amazing partnership over the last two years. And to get them on the show. And hear them give this level of insight into what makes them tick as individuals but also as a team. I think you're gonna love this one. So settle in and enjoy. Lloyd Glasspool and Harri Harri Heliovaara. So Lloyd and Harri a big welcome to Control the Controllables how're you doing?

Harri Heliovaara  01:52

Very good, thank you.

Daniel Kiernan  01:54

And they says I didn't expect Lloyd to speak to me at that point. You know, the less words the better with Lloyd. But I would like to welcome my my second favorite Lloyd and Harri partnership. You know, and I never thought that I would get anyone coming close to the Dumb and Dumber, Lloyd and Harry. So the big question is like, who's dumb and who's dumber?

Lloyd Glasspool  02:17

I think I would have to take dumb and Harri dumber. Yeah.

Daniel Kiernan  02:23

Did he have you do in the IQ test as well? Harry in Turin?

Harri Heliovaara  02:27

Yeah, we did some tests, though. We didn't do well there, though.

Daniel Kiernan  02:31

They didn't pop up boys. What what a year, you've had 2022 started in the rankings at 78 and 64, respectively. And the air is the fifth best doubles team in the world. Ranked 11 and 12 in the world. And, and Harry, it's, it's one week on from Turin. You know, you've maybe finally had a little bit of time to just sit down and reflect on the last 12 months. And what's your reflections been like?

Harri Heliovaara  03:03

Yeah, obviously, it's it's been a crazy year, I would say like, we exceeded at least all of my own expectations, and probably not many other people thought that we could do so well. Started a little bit slow in Australia, but then during the during the spring just kept going by a little bit better get some practice in. And I think the ending was just almost perfect. Just an amazing year.

Daniel Kiernan  03:29

What would you put that down to Lloyd? You know, I mean, I know having the fortune to spend some time with you guys in Turin last week. I know you were playing a challenger in Turin earlier in the year. You know, what, what do you put such the such a meteoric rise down to

Lloyd Glasspool  03:46

Leading up to this year, tennis was in a bit of a weird place like we were kind of stuck in challengers a little bit longer than I thought we deserved to be just because of the strength for them and the way the points were set out. So I don't actually think the level wise we were as far off at the beginning of the year as our ranking suggested. But having said that, we have both worked very hard throughout the year. There's been a couple key moments for us. I don't want to give anyone else the credit. But Harri came over to London a couple times throughout the year to do a little training camp together with Louie Cayer. And both times after those camps, we've actually gone on to probably produce some of our best tennis and best results so those are kind of two standout moments for me.

Daniel Kiernan  04:40

And in terms of it Harri like it's it's the sort of it's the sort of sport where like Lloyd said you can get stuck it's not easy and I always think in doubles getting past 35, 40 is quite a tough spot as well you know you have to win a lot to you know, it's almost like you guys were like knife rube Artur, once you got going, you just you went and went. But the other thing we see in doubles, is when the partnership not that the partnership wasn't working. But it's easy for people to start blaming a little bit looking elsewhere having other offers. And I think it's great credit to both of you that you have continued going, like you alluded to one match out of four at the start in Australia, you know, but you've kept going with the partnership. You know, was there a moment for both of you? Where we where you thought maybe this isn't the partnership that's gonna work? And how have you been able to then work through that together?

Harri Heliovaara  05:39

Yeah, I would say the key part was actually the end of last year actually, end of 21, when we when we knew that we had to do really well in the last couple of challenges of the year to be able to get into Australia together. And because we had such a good result, in especially, we had to win the last one in Barbary, we did that. And we that kind of I don't know, it felt like it built, the relationship will be stronger, we could trust each other that okay, we did this together, let's start the year together, probably they were still, both of us were thinking that when we get into a bigger events during the year, maybe we have to split to get in. But on the other hand, there was the ATP doubles top 13 rule, which means that if you play together, you might get into like a get accepted to ATP 1000 tournament if you're one of the best 13 teams in the world. And that was that was one of the goals and probably also kept us together a little bit. And yeah, that was that was a key thing, first of all, to be able to get into in together into the tournaments, beginning of the year, and then just slowly getting better results. And then then there's no point in splitting up when you're when you're in the race also.

Daniel Kiernan  06:54

Because that's the thing like it isn't and it's like, in in doubles. With you, if you're not getting in the events, then you are splitting up. And then then you're in that ranking of 6070, where you starting to play with different partners each week, the Brian's famously talked about the first six months of the year was always the time that they cashed in, you know, it was like the first six months of the year, these other partners were splitting up. And they they found that they just had the rhythm from the start of the year, they would clean up when all of the tournaments, it would get to the second half of the year, and the other teams would catch them up. And then they would all split up again. And then they would clean up at the start of that six months. So is that something that the more you play with someone the more that you understand? Or is the I guess there's also the danger? The more you play with someone, the more that you nickel, but you know, how much is it about the relationship, the understanding of each of his games, and and how you combine the strengths of of the two of you because you both have different strengths? You know, you seem to complement each other very well.

Lloyd Glasspool  08:05

Yeah, as you said, I think it can go one way or the other. And with us, our personalities, obviously just get on and gel and we're going to spend a lot of time together. So for us, it's actually been positive spending so much time together and our relationship continuing. But yeah, I think it was just for us he's gone strength to strength by just really knowing each other's game so well. And knowing when maybe I need to give a bit more or he needs to give a bit more to like, cover my weakness at a certain moment or just something like that really understanding each other and then in a tight pressure moment if you know what your partner is going to do as well as what yourself is going to do that gives you such an advantage over a team that doesn't really know what the other person is going to do. They only know what himselves are going to do in those pressure moments.

Daniel Kiernan  08:57

Because I you say about you guys getting on and you know it's it's great to see but I do think you are a bit chalk and cheese you know anyone that's anyone that's watched you and you know that I was speaking to someone after terrain and they said I just love it. I just love the way Harry celebrates, and as Harry celebrating Lloyd in the backgrounds walking off to the to the changing rooms, you know, and that was that was great for me to see as well. I saw I took a couple of videos you know you guys warming up before the match and loads on the bike just kind of chilling and Harry's getting a full sweat on you know ready to go. And that that chalk and cheese where's that what is like Harry off the court as well or is that just you know, it's an infectious energy that you bring on the court. You know, would it be would it be difficult to have two Harry's and two loads to play together?

Harri Heliovaara  09:52

I think it's a great combination. We need that because from from my point of view, I just love Competition, like anytime we're playing for for no matter what the price is, but when we're playing for something, I just, I just thrive in that situation. I want to I want to win. And that like that brings the energy out of me, but probably many people wouldn't believe it when they see me. Outside the tennis court, I'm mostly a pretty calm person. But then on the court, I just changed into this Arafura guy full of energy and I think Lloyd is is a similar type of guy outside the court he's quite calm and things thanks a lot and and he just keeps keeps himself cool on the court as well. He really, he knows what he's doing there. He doesn't have to show anyone anything. He just does his own thing and lets me do this celebrations.

Daniel Kiernan  10:49

Well, I I remember a long time ago with with Lloyd given him a couple of a couple of tellings off on the doubles court for not bringing enough energy, you know, so So I've always thought as I've followed you guys, that you are the perfect perfect for for him because, you know, you being able to be the one that is, is bringing that energy allows him to then, you know, play player, that cool role, that that he's that he's able to do and playing his best tennis, but Harry to get to know you a little bit better for the listeners. And I would love to know this as well, because I believe you didn't play tennis for a few years. So tell us a little bit about your story and why why there was such a long time without without you playing tennis. And then because of that, do you feel you've come back with even extra enthusiasm on the back of that?

Harri Heliovaara  11:43

Yeah, that's That's very true. I actually, after high school in Finland, I played for three and a half, four years professionally, mostly singles back then, but of course also doubles. And I still made some good results. I made top 200 in singles back then. I felt okay, but my body was hurting a lot, I got quite tired, I had some financial issues. So I decided to do all the things in life, I had a good plan b Go Go back to the university and studied Industrial Engineering and Management master's degree there worked a little bit as a consultant and did an internship at a private equity firm as well. So I had time to do a lot of other things. Tennis was almost five years that I didn't play professionally. But I don't know sometimes after three, four years of not playing, our Davis Cup team in Finland actually needed someone to play we didn't have anyone. And then I kind of enjoyed it again, I was playing for the right reasons playing for myself and and then the Tokyo Olympics started to come closer and we had Henri Kontinen finished number one in the world back then in 2017. And I mean, it was obvious that he needed a partner to play Tokyo. And if he was if he was stopped, then he could choose anyone he wants to play with. And I've thought that maybe maybe I should be the one he could play with. And if I if I didn't try to make it into the Olympics, I would maybe regret it in the future when I was older. So little by little thought it grew grew a little bit that I want to play play again, starting back in the futures futures quallies those it was a long, long trip wasn't easy at any point, the first couple of years, singles and doubles and 2019 focusing in doubles on the challengers to COVID break. I mean, it wasn't easy, but now all of a sudden when things started working so well with Lloyd in the last two years, why wouldn't I enjoy it to the full world and I do everything I can to to play better. So I hope the excitement that I have actually chosen the cord and I actually enjoy it even more than I did when I was young.

Daniel Kiernan  14:00

It the word the word perspective jumps to mind and I think obviously, I've been a lot closer to Lloyd's journey than yours, Harri but I think if we take Lloyd's journey but also a lot of the doubles guys a lot of the doubles guys were US college graduates, you know, they maybe had that period of time where they weren't sure if they were gonna play professional, you know, and they maybe focus their mind they got their studies, you know, they saw a bit of a bigger picture of the world got outside of the tennis bubble that we all know from junior years that is so crazy and sends so so many people crazy and to to bring you in like Do you Do you see that? Because it certainly seems to me like a lot of the doubles guys have this perspective. They have this outlook, that it's it's not that it's not the be all and end all because of course everybody wants to win and do well, but they they have that little bit more of a mature perspective. Because of the the journey that it's taken them to get there.

Lloyd Glasspool  15:05

Yeah, I think you definitely find different characters on the doubles tour, to singles tour and I think it's rare you find singles guys retire from singles and then purely going into doubles. I think the ones you do see doing that really have like a unrivaled love for the game. Like Marcel Granollers. But there's actually not too many guys, there's guys that will retire just outside 100 Never break in. Not going to doubles. Yeah, I think once you go into doubles, you need to know what you're signing up for, need to have like a bigger picture, you can probably consider a lot of other options. And then you've realized what you actually enjoy that you do actually love tennis. And this is another really good way of making a career and staying in the sport that you love, but potentially not being in singles.

Daniel Kiernan  15:58

Has there been times when you've doubted that love of tennis?

Lloyd Glasspool  16:04

Yeah, a few times along the way? For sure. Even still up until this day? And does that. Does that help you? or hinder you? I think both, I think it can help me in a sense that I potentially don't get as nervous as some people out there. I wouldn't say not as passionate because, you know, if you look at mine, and how he's practices behind closed doors, we're both very competitive, we did not want to lose to each other even in practice drills. But yeah, and then the traveling made it hinders me that. Yeah, sometimes if I can take a week off and don't want to have to travel to I don't know where somewhere across the US or the world. Sometimes I'll choose the option of not doing it for someone else to you know, truly loves it well put in that extra week and maybe get a life changing result there.

Daniel Kiernan  17:08

So because of that now you're closing in top 10 in the world, number five doubles team in the world. How long do you think you can do it for?

Lloyd Glasspool  17:22

Me and Harri talked about this quite a lot. I don't know, look, I want to I've started to make a great life of myself, I started to really enjoy it being at the big tournaments, stay in a bit nicer hotels, but a little bit better. I'd definitely like to go for another maybe four or five years. As Harry spoke about earlier the Olympics, I definitely want to play and try and make it to the Olympics Davis Cup, there's still a few things that I want to tick off. Once I've ticked off those if I do, then it will be interesting to see how long around for

Daniel Kiernan  17:59

What your I can hire you to drink in the cities. bloodies gonna say that. And he is because four or five years, four or five years is a long time as well. And I think there's actually a there's a story. I don't know if you guys have come across Benjamin Becker. So Benjamin Becker, the German player, and he, I can't say 100% That the story is true, because I wasn't there. But you know, it comes from reliable sources. And he was playing for Baylor University. And after the first year, he actually said to the coach, he said, Look, Coach, I hate this. He said, But just telling me what I need to do to get my 100% scholarship. You know, you tell me I'll do it. I'll just view it as very much a job. You know, I'll get it done. You know, I guess if you've got the discipline to do it, and he did it. He was number one NCAA is you know how to add a fantastic NCAA is record and then he was like sort of playing a few tournaments. He was like I'm making 100 grand 150 grand a year. I'm not sure I'll get a job that I can make 150 grand a year, and it  kind of built like that. And, you know, I sometimes think we expect his coaches that our players are just going to love every minute of every day. And if they don't, then it's not for them. So I think it's refreshing when people share your stories. You know, Harry, you took a few years away from the game. You know, Lloyd you openly admit that it's not that you've got this burning passion every single day. And there's, there's there's other parts of life and I think for because there is a lot of coaches out there listening to this. There is a lot of parents, there is a lot of players. And I think sometimes that type of advice is better than just the glam. The glamorous life that we always hear when we when we see stars on the TV. So Harry you're you're a family man, as well. So that you know tell tell us how tough is the is the travel, you know being away from the family. You know, how do you how do you cope with because doubles? Guys? How many? How many times did you guys play last year?

Harri Heliovaara  20:07

I think we play 30,31 weeks

Daniel Kiernan  20:10

Doubles guys are probably playing 10 More than the singles guys on average. So, you know, so how and you do and you track some travel weeks to London so 35, 36 weeks away from home? How did you cope? And how do you family cope with that?

Harri Heliovaara  20:26

Yeah, I have to admit it, it's not easy. It's, it's a difficult situation because personally, I always love traveling. Like, when I when I played, I used to love going to new places I love flying to flying airplanes. It's like a hobby to me. And it's just just one of the one of the things that tennis profession actually gives gives you like, it's something you can enjoy, you get to travel a lot. And all of a sudden, when a baby was born one and a half years ago, it was it gotten a little bit trickier I have to have to admit. And I think it's it's never gonna get any easier now that the baby recognizes me and starts to say my name and Okay, where's daddy going? Of course, it's very difficult for my wife to spending a lot of time alone at home, and I'm just traveling. And especially when you play when I go to a tournament, I can never never tell her when I'm coming back. Could be two days. If we do well, we might play three weeks in a row. That's the uncertainty. That's that's one of the most difficult things. But I mean, so far we've survived, we got to where I was able to buy us a very nice new house this year. So you think things are also good that we have a very good situation, we got my parents helping here a little bit. But it's it's a combination of working hard on the tennis court and my wife working hard at all. So far, it's worked at least two, at least well enough.

Daniel Kiernan  22:02

And the compensation you could you say that and, you know, I speak to people, and when I've coached many players who, who I guess have the same level of sacrifice, are doing the same weeks away. But they're not getting the compensation because the results haven't been good enough. You know, on that at least you guys are sitting here going? Wow. You know, I think it's, you know, however many hundreds of 1000s that you've now earned this year. That makes a difference. But Lloyd at what point that what ranking in doubles, do you start to see that compensation that finance coming in? To get you to a level where you can relax a little bit? It starts to be like, Okay, well, this is worth it now, you know, is that is that 30 in the world? 40 in the world? 50 Higher? You know, what's the reality of that?

Lloyd Glasspool  22:53

I think in reality you need to be in averaging getting in the Masters. So top 30 I'd say. And if you're in top 30, then you're probably going deep in some five hundreds you make it in quarters at 16 of slams. So is quite regularly good income. Yeah, I'd say about 30 mark anything lower than you need to winning a lot. And if you went in, like your ranking will probably go up stuff inside 30.

Daniel Kiernan  23:25

Okay, because speaking to Ken Skupski, who I know you both know, but Ken, Ken got to I don't know if you know this, but his highest ever ranking was 44. And he got there three times. So on three different occasions, he got the 44. And he talked to us on the podcast about this that in that period from like 50 to 30. You've got a win so much in the way that the points are set up. So if I go through this year for you guys that was in and around, you went from June. And I know Harri, you were a little bit higher than Lloyd. But at the start of June Harri, you were about 40 in the world, Lloyd 52. And then by by the start of August, you were 33, 26. So it feels as if you kind of got through that period, really quite easily. Was that down to down to winning so much, Harri?

Harri Heliovaara  24:26

Yeah, I'm still surprised. I still don't understand how we made it. Like honestly, I feel like we played against some teams for like newcity Alinsky, who beat us several times this year and check their rankings. Every time I'm in, like surprise, why are they so far behind us? Like how did we make it and they did. But I think we just we just had so many good results during that summer and we had actually very few first round losses throughout the years. Every time we played a tournament we managed to get some points and when we were able to get into those bigger events. Every time that one to three wins gives you a good amount of points like, those are points that the top 10 to 15 guys usually get from their, like worst tournaments and we were able to do the same. And obviously then we had Queens club finals there, Hamburg win another 502 quarterfinals in Grand Slams. So yeah, still, I find it surprising that we will, we managed to get through that, like the 30. Ranking so so quickly, because I mean, we were thinking beginning of the year, maybe throughout the year that hopefully 2023 We can play the ATP 1000s We can be in the top 30 But here we are 11 and 12.

Daniel Kiernan  25:44

And what was the highlight for you 2022 Lloyd

Lloyd Glasspool  25:49

For me Queens was although we didn't win it, it was probably one of the most fun I've ever had at a tournament. All my like friends family, Cody Stafford's such a good group and squad, they're cheering us on every match, we got to play on the big show court twice. somewhere that I've never played before. Actually, Harri got traded last year, we've got a wildcard to drop out. So yeah, for me, that was the big highlight. And that also propelled us I think, to have a really good summer, which it did. And then we kind of shot up the rankings from there, and then Turin. You can't really have a bigger moment than that throughout the year.

Harri Heliovaara  26:35

Yeah, I'm surprised you say Queens because I don't think that gets into the top five, My best experience of the year, but obviously, you're from the UK playing at home. It's a special moment. And I would say of course I played two Davis Cups at home. Those are very special. Two very good wins there. But But I would say the Grand Slams were also pretty nice, like US Open. The third round against Kyrgios, kokkinakis That was one of the best atmospheres I've had on the tennis court. And touring. I agree that that was pretty cool.

Daniel Kiernan  27:07

What's it like to be beat Nick Kyrgios Lloyd?

Lloyd Glasspool  27:14

I mean, it's great. Yeah, I mean, it's probably one of the best players in the world, one of the best tennis players in the world, not just doubles players, one of the best tennis players he beats the finger is one of the only people to have a winning record against Djokovic and the rest of them. So to be able to beat someone as good as that, even if it's on a doubles court is just really good. You know?

Daniel Kiernan  27:37

What about that Return, return which the backhand return Kyrgios serving. That's going to live long in the memory. That was match point.

Lloyd Glasspool  27:53

I think if he had that point again, he probably would hit a spot and probably hit another ace like he had done or match so probably wasn't best to serve backhand body. But it was a great feeling when that ball came off my strings and went for a winner. I did not expect to return Kyrgios' first serve for a winner on a doubles court.

Daniel Kiernan  28:12

I think this is an interesting one because those listening will know this. Now, if we talk about tennis players and you go around the world, to any tennis tournament, you have players, parents coaches obsessing over the draws. They're on there, they're checking UTRs they're who are playing in the first round in the quarterfinals and playing the number one seed and you know, it's all kind of built up. And one of my favorite sayings is tennis is played on the court. It's not played on paper. But we actually have someone here in in Lloyd who doesn't look at the draws doesn't know the ranking statuses. Now I'm gonna go to you first Harri before I bring Lloyd in on that. Do you look at the draws? And do you know where you stand ranking wise? And if so? How do you avoid telling Lloyd?

Harri Heliovaara  29:06

I know probably too. Well. Yeah, I'm very aware of it. Like for example, the race to Turin. Like, I don't know. I've learned to not tell Lloyd I think it's just hilarious. Like, it checks the order of play the night before to see who we play. Obviously, obviously in the draw, nor everything. And even after the match, we in Paris, we win the quarterfinal. We make it to Turin and I tell him that we made it and he's like, Oh, really, I didn't have any clue. Say the same in Turin. Actually the group stage we get like we guaranteed a place in the semi finals. The commentators after the match tells him that and they Oh really? He honestly doesn't know and I think that's that's just inspiring to me. But how can you actually not know that? He doesn't somehow I've learned to Appreciate it.

Daniel Kiernan  30:01

Come on Lloyd. When did this start? When did this start? And how do you how do you maintain that?

Lloyd Glasspool  30:11

I don't really know when it started, was it not? Was not doing it when I was with you?

Daniel Kiernan  30:16

I don't think so I maybe I don't remember you ever obsessing over it? That's for sure. You know, I don't think you ever obsessed. But I would say you had a bit of an idea, you know, like, but yeah, maybe not. I certainly don't ever think to see it as something that was a big deal to you. You were quite good at taking matches.

Lloyd Glasspool  30:42

I don't know when it was or why it happened. But I just don't see any value at all in looking ahead. Nothing that's concrete, you know, you might lose your first round. So what's the point in saying, who you might play or what your ranking might go to if you win or what the prize money is if you win this match, because it's all if there's no certainty, so and it's just added pressure. So you know, you've got to play this person first round, you see, then there's two wildcards or two qualifiers or whatever you consider an easy to draw, then that's just added pressure, because you've got to get through this on because then I've got an easy join, it just takes your eye off the ball. So anything for me that looks into the future, and anything that's uncertain, and not just that opponent right ahead of you. I just have no interest in looking and don't see any value of looking at it.

Daniel Kiernan  31:31

You sound like a sports psychologist Lloyd. And last time, last time you were on the podcast, you told us all that you don't believe in sports psychologists? Has that changed?

Lloyd Glasspool  31:49

No, I think I'm proof that maybe don't need one. If that's the same as what they would say.

Daniel Kiernan  31:54

It's but it is, I think it is as Harri said it's inspiring it is I think, to have to genuinely have that mindset, I think is brilliant. And I think if if more people could have that mindset, then you know, they can they can just go out and play and put their put their focus on the things that are important, the process of what you're putting on court, you know, exactly, like this podcast is called control the controllables. You know, it's not, the draw's out of your control, isn't it, you know, who you're going to play is out of your control.

Harri Heliovaara  32:25

Yeah, I also think it also comes to how God plays the game, like he has a massive serve, it doesn't matter who is returning, he doesn't need to know who is returning. And with the return, he just, he picks a side he goes for it, it's it's his way of playing tennis that he wants to keep everything in his own control. So it's not that interesting to hit, who we play against, he just plays his game doesn't matter who we play or where we play or what's what's the price, he just does his own thing.

Daniel Kiernan  32:54

That brings me into another another one and data, you know, the higher the higher level you get to the more data the successful, you know, when when when I was coaching Lloyd in the futures, I'd sit there with my pen and paper and it was a lot of work for me to tell him that he'd served 36 Aces and he'd served at 78%. You know, like it whereas nowadays, and you know, Lloyd was sharing that with me in Turin, within 10 minutes of the match finishing, you've got all the data that you could ever have. Now, where I think this links in it's a it's a similar mindset in some ways. Because if you are an over-analyzer, if you are a stressor, a worrier, and people that tend to look into the future tend to stress and worry, you know, once you you get that amount of data, you can overanalyze, you can have analysis by, paralysis by analysis you know, or, at the same time. There's there's great use of data you know, using data in the right way especially the doubles the doubles guys, it's such a strategic game in so many ways. So I want to get both your opinions on this. You Harri would seem to be like someone who likes data.

Harri Heliovaara  34:15

That is correct. I really like numbers. That's what I studied my whole life. Like I study a lot of mathematics during my my university studies and I just love numbers I want to know the probabilities like what the opponents are probably doing what's working best for us and I will say that it's it's more of the me who goes through the stats especially before the match and then like maybe comes up with some ideas for the game plan Where's Lloyd has usually like more straightforward things for the upcoming upcoming matches but but yeah, like you say, I just I just love the numbers. I also agree a little bit that I might over analyze them. Sometimes when I'm too worried. And I watch a lot of maybe too many matches of the opponents beforehand, then they do one thing, which I didn't expect. And then I started worrying though this was not supposed to happen. So how did they do that? So my mind start to worry me a little bit. But then again, it's also been very, very helpful this year, because we have the amount of data that that LTA actually brings. So I think it's, it's helped me and our team tremendously. And I wouldn't, I don't think we wouldn't be here if we didn't have all that support. What about you, Lloyd?

Lloyd Glasspool  35:36

No, I think it's good. I think it's great to have if you can have it, but I don't think it's the be all and end all. I think it gives you a good insight and overview of what a team may do or what a team may favor. But look, you went off stats, you said, serve jokes always pre stretched back. And all the time. Well, me and Harri served, I think about 75% of our first service or aces and returnable was all we want to point fingers 95% of time. So I think you can use them. And they can help eliminate options. But I don't think it has to do and especially with, as Harri touched on earlier, the way I want to play my game, I don't really mind if someone's got a better backhand or forehand return. I'm going to spot and I think it just creates a good overview of the player. And continuing pressure might be on Endo. And as long as you view it like that, and don't get annoyed if you know, their best serve on paper is a T serve. And a big point is serve your wide. As long as you can come to terms with that if you want to buy into the stats, then by all means use them.

Daniel Kiernan  36:46

And one thing that also hit me in Turin is like, as you sit in that box, you in some ways, are influential one way or the other in some ways, because you know, the support team, you know, if you go and watch a junior tournament, can you impact a match maybe a little bit. But when your sat there, and you maybe have that, that five second, you have that five second period to maybe get a message across. And, and I saw it I won't mention names. But I saw in one of the one of the matches, I saw one of the coaches really trying to get a message across to their player. And the message was, give them that serve on that that's where they're going to serve, all second service are going to go in one area. And I watched thinking or the delivery of that message. You've got to be so careful as a coach. And the next four seconds serves they didn't serve the body serve once. And I could see the player like Gone furious. And I don't know if you remember ly but in Greece, it was actually you I think that got the scouting report to remember this on the air as an American guy. So hurry. So Josh Ward hibbott, who arrives to coach and me Lloyd and Josh used to travel good friend of mine and Lloyds. And he was playing against a guy who had a bit of an extreme grip on his backhand. So the scouting report was he struggles to roll a backhand backhand passing shot. And Josh was a was a net rusher, he came to the net a lot. And I was charting the match. And it was a set and four two up and he'd come to the net on his backhand 26 times. And he'd won 25 points. I mean, you don't often get a scouting report that works that well. break point down at four to 6-3 4-2. He hits a crap backhand slice comes in, the guy with this dodgy grip just rolls a backhand pass cross court because the approach was so bad. And Josh looks at me and Lloyd and he starts going Yeah, really good. Really good information. Yes. Thanks, guys. Great information. Now this bit of information, it worked 25 times in on the one time that it didn't work. That's what players tend to do you know, when you guys have played this sport for a long time, the emotion builds in you at certain times, and we like to blame. So do you guys like to receive specific information like that, as the match is going on? Or is or is the danger? I guess the point I'm getting to data is data. But the interpretation of the data. And the delivery of that data for me is is really quite key and where the skill and the coach is. What how do you find that Harri?

Harri Heliovaara  39:49

Yeah, it's it's not easy. I'd say you have to trust the culture a lot. You have to. There has to be someone that actually knows what he's doing. For example, Louis Cayer has helped us these last two years and when he tells us something from the box I'm very happy to hear what he has to say. He often uses very short phrases like yeah cover the T give him the wide or something like that when your returning and I think that helps also makes life easier for you as a player you you can you don't have to worry about it just do what you're told focus on that if it doesn't work, okay, we do something else but you don't have to argue with yourself at least you have someone to blame if it wasn't right. But I still at the same time I feel like sometimes I'm very I'm too harsh towards my coach in the box. I tried to get an get some advice from him which is impossible for him to give. And especially now this year when we have the new coaching rule coaching is allowed actually so they are they can tell you something so sometimes you you maybe wish they would tell you even more when I'm serving okay if my toes okay, I'm not using my legs what's wrong? That's probably the the most difficult question you can ask your coach like, Why Why am I hitting in the net, the coach just tell you to get a little bit higher, but it's not easy. But to sum it up, I liked very like small very short phrases from the coaches and if I trust the person then that usually usually works

Daniel Kiernan  41:28

And flip it around Lloyd you're the coach in the box. And there's some players there's some very high profile players again, we won't go into names but there is there is a lot of high profile players that tend to shout at their box that seems there seems to be you know, it seems to be getting more and more common you know that it's happening if you're a coach and that happens from the player what are you going to do?

Lloyd Glasspool  41:56

Me personally I just wouldn't take on live I think it's always just how I'd be as a character I know that hierarchies weird in the tennis hiring system and technically the players hiring the coach but I've always been a believer of the coach should be higher than the player in the hierarchy system and should be the one calling the shots so you almost have to be respectful to them and understand that like they're leading this thing not you so for me it's never been an issue. No shouting and no disrespect and whatever Yeah, they're my boss so if it happened to me I just would leave probably

Daniel Kiernan  42:36

you've been brought up well, well done Char and Neil the brought you up well with Filipinos another

Lloyd Glasspool  42:43

Figured out for myself that one no sports psychologist

Daniel Kiernan  42:47

we know we know what you're going to do after after tennis line. Anyway, guys, I'm conscious of the time I do have a quick fire round. But my, my my last thing Harri is on the sports psychology themes, you know, which, you know, psychology is certainly an area of passion of mine, I don't proclaim to be a sports psychologist. But I do think in listening to you guys, the mindset is, you're very very skillful, talented tennis players, but as are hundreds of others, you know, and it's often the mindset, and your abilities to gel that together that gets you there, you now have a bit of expectation, you know, you've, you've got a bit of a target, you know, on your backs, you know that, that year of rising all the time and seeing your ranking go from 70 to 60, to 55 to 50. To, you know, that Chase, you know, that chase after the ranking, from a psychological standpoint is quite a nice place to be, you know, so going into 2023 that is a potential danger. You know, as you go into 2023 How are we how are you going to handle that?

Harri Heliovaara  44:02

It's interesting, actually, we haven't had any discussion about when it went through with Lloyd yet of course, we agreed to play together, but that's about it. So it's gonna be different though. We're going to start here in Australia, we're going there. Notice the one of the last themes to be accepted, but actually one of if not the favorite, when when we were still there, top five favorites to win. We're going to be seated in all the events, at least the first part of the year, and this year has been so easy. We just go from win to win don't have to overthink anything. Everything happens easily like by itself. Next year. We are going to lose matches that's going to be normal. It's how everybody it happens to everybody. Just have to accept that but the good thing is that we're still 11 and 12 We can still continue the way up so we still have 10 More players ahead of us. We haven't haven't made it to number one yet so we can, we can still go on and just enjoy the the ride.

Daniel Kiernan  45:06

And Lloyd the one thing that hit me and not amazed me, but I have a lot of admiration for both of you in Turin was how normal you guys made it, you know, and coming from the journey that you've both had to be at the, the big show, you know, the ATP World Tour finals, it's the big show you you, you feel it, you know, the Players Lounge is basically it's basically superstars, you know, in the player lounge and, you know, only the top 8 make it in the singles and doubles. And it was just like, okay, yeah, just another, another match. You know, we you kind of take it in your stride. It feels like you've done that all year. You know, and I see no reason why you don't do that in 2023 as well, Lloyd.

Lloyd Glasspool  45:57

Yeah, I mean, as you said, it's gonna be the first year where people now come to beat us rather than not lose to us. I think when you're rising team teams are a little nervy and they try and not lose to you, rather than beat you. And everyone's going to be coming out with a target on our back. I think, you know, I handle defending points pretty well as you know, when I rose to my career high in one year, and then dropped straight back out and never touched it again. So it shouldn't be an issue for 2023 I'm looking forward to it.

Daniel Kiernan  46:32

That's psychologist

Lloyd Glasspool  46:36

now, I think this time, we're just because we're very close to the top and as Harri said, there's more, you know, the few more spaces we need to get to we just take confidence in it. At least I am and I'm hoping Harry's taken massive competence in it and these big moments and big events just become normal. And you know, it doesn't faze us too much.

Daniel Kiernan  47:00

I mean, I don't like to point it out. Lloyd but that is also when you you moved on from me as a coach your career high so you know this could also this could also be the missing link.

Lloyd Glasspool  47:12

Some say coincidence is a pattern.

Daniel Kiernan  47:16

But boys if you look, I'll say this if you can win a Grand Slam you will definitely move into the My favorite Harry and Lloyd partnership. You know you will take over Hey Harry or buddy old pal, you know if you can if you can do it. It's it's been a pleasure. Honestly, it's been a pleasure. There's not many matches this year. I've missed watching you guys to be able to see you in person as well. Your your a delightful partnership to watch and you know, you've got so much more like you say Harri to give you know, there's still 1010 guys in front of you. You know, there's still plenty of people that you could that you can chase down, keep keep enjoying every part of this journey. You know, you've both gone through the proper tennis journey. I'm not talking to Carlos Alcaraz here who's just tripped upon, you know, being world number one age 16 or whatever he is, you know, you guys have have really put the work in over the years. So a big well done to both of you a big Good luck. But before I let you go, we have our quick fire round it. It's a little bit different hurry. We normally have a few questions. But you know, the first question in the big in the quick fire round. If you ever played Lloyd in doubles?

Harri Heliovaara  48:33

Yes, I have. I've beaten him and I've lost to him.

Lloyd Glasspool  48:37

So where did you beat them?

Harri Heliovaara  48:39

That was the final of Bella challenger 2020. And also later that year, I lost to hit also in Italy in Pisa first round.

Lloyd Glasspool  48:50

In the final. Did you play on a final? Yeah. For challenger? Did you beat them twice then?

Harri Heliovaara  48:56

Did I? Oh, I am not usually good. I

Daniel Kiernan  49:00

Don't forget Lisbon, Lisbon, Portugal,

Harri Heliovaara  49:04

Jesus Christ and beaten him twice. I have a winning record against my partner and I didn't remember

Daniel Kiernan  49:09

Who but who won the last one lied.

Lloyd Glasspool  49:12

Think me if that was all today, I think what was the last one? That was in November 20.

Daniel Kiernan  49:19

I believe that Lloyd got the last one. But I'm going to bring it back to you Harry, who had the highest singles ranking. Oh, that's easy. That was me. So we can't we can't let Lloyd Lloyd have them all. What what do you think Harri's best shot is Lloyd.

Lloyd Glasspool  49:35

What's his best shot his backhand return? And what about Lloyd's? Harry

Harri Heliovaara  49:40

Serve is probably one of the best in the world.

Daniel Kiernan  49:43

And I believe I remember actually Lloyd you played it and you will remember there's a final ever futures. And there was a few guys it was Aussies and and I got asked the question this final hurry. You wouldn't believe it singles final I think it was 38 as as he served. And seven six in the 3rd he won1. And I remember somebody said to me, where do you think he's service like, relative and this was a futures level? And I said at that time, I honestly think he serves top 10 in the world, you know, and that was that was playing futures and what I saw in Turin, I have no reason to believe that it says that it's any less than that as well. What is your win loss record this year? Harri actually Lloyd first. It's more likely for Harry to get it right than Lloyd. I think it's 48-25. I think you were pretty

Harri Heliovaara  50:40

close. We had 27 losses. That's not counting the challenger. And we had maybe 45 wins not counting your challenger

Daniel Kiernan  50:54

48 and 28.

Harri Heliovaara  50:57

But that's counting a challenger.

Daniel Kiernan  51:00

I don't do all of my own research for ease, you know, they control the control. It's a big deal is control the controllables thing you know, we have researchers we have, we have all sorts. What's What's one thing that you would change about Lloyd

Harri Heliovaara  51:18

he could spend less time with his smartphone.

Daniel Kiernan  51:22

Lloyd, one thing you change about Harry?

Lloyd Glasspool  51:27

He could sleep a little more. He's always up so early.

Daniel Kiernan  51:33

But you're at the stage. Now. You don't even have to share rooms in the in the big time. Do you?

Harri Heliovaara  51:39

No, I think we've shared the room one night during our two year, two year playing career once and that was just during an airport layover in Madrid.

Daniel Kiernan  51:50

Wow. Okay. That's, and that also hit me as well in Turin is like, a lot of the doubles guys just aren't spending that much time together. You know, like, I'm not sure I saw Mektic and Pavic even practice together.  It was like, like, unbelievable. Like, is that a bit of salt is that is that normal hurry that. Actually people are kind of living in lots of ways they're on their own lives and then coming together, you know, is that because it's the end of the year, that as the year goes on, it's you kind of know what you're doing. You understand each other, that you then meeting up for short practices and then playing matches.

Harri Heliovaara  52:28

I think it depends where there are surely some teams who spend a lot of time together like to go for lunch and dinner and do everything together to kind of like be a good partnership. But for us, it's always worked well that we we just we do our thing on the court. We do do it very well. And then we do our own things in the evenings we are we have a very, very good business relationship and it works well for us it is there's nothing wrong with it. Like if we're two guys having our own dinners by ourselves in the the rooms next to each other and we're still happy and I think that is all

Daniel Kiernan  53:08

and what would what would Harri be if he wasn't a tennis player? Lloyd

Lloyd Glasspool  53:16

Well, I'd say something in finance, but he's tried that and left I would say pilot but he didn't pass his medical just wanted to put that out there. So what would he be?

Daniel Kiernan  53:29

Dare We ask why?

Harri Heliovaara  53:31

Yeah, my back problems they were which was one of the reasons I stopped my career earlier. I tried to become a pilot, but at least our Finnish airline wouldn't let me become a pilot because of my back.

Daniel Kiernan  53:44

So you can be a professional tennis player, one of the best tennis players in the world with you back but you can't sit in a plane and fly it

Harri Heliovaara  53:53

That's correct. I didn't have to go to the army here in Finland. I couldn't become a pilot but I can still play but it's also because I've found the right medicine now so that's that's very big part of it.

Daniel Kiernan  54:05

And Harry What about Lloyd? I mean, I know he thinks he would be a model but what is it what do you think he would be?

Harri Heliovaara  54:13

Of course. I mean, he also loves finance you would he would probably work at that his friends private equity firm do a lot of money.

Daniel Kiernan  54:24

And would would Harry make a good coach Lloyd

Lloyd Glasspool  54:28

Yeah, definitely got a lot of love for the game

Daniel Kiernan  54:31

What about Lloyd

Harri Heliovaara  54:32

No, he's already tired of traveling

Daniel Kiernan  54:38

With it'd have to be the right person maybe maybe remotely

Harri Heliovaara  54:42

Or a very very big salary.

Daniel Kiernan  54:46

And and in the last last couple of questions, what would one rule change be in doubles Lloyd for you?

Lloyd Glasspool  54:57

It would be when Wimbledon going to best of five sets. Best of five too much?.  Yeah, too long

Daniel Kiernan  55:04

For you or for the fans.

Lloyd Glasspool  55:06

I think for the fans, I don't think well firstly takes away singles guys playing, then it sometimes that's your plan mixed as well. And grasses such like a quick game. I don't think we need to see five sets of a lot of just serve and return nothing put some Tigrex in there make some pressure situations. Hurry.

Harri Heliovaara  55:28

I would like to say two if that's okay, first of all I would like in tennis in general, we need to get rid of the let serve. When the ball touches the net it's it's useless doesn't bring anything to the game. And I think many juniors in college games they've already gotten rid of it. And secondly, I I've heard they tried it in the USA that no one can start the point inside the service line doubles. I think that would be interesting. That would make the points longer because nowadays many, many service partners are very, very close to the net. And let's clean the net everytime the return is not good enough. If they have to start before behind the service line. The volley is not as easy and we get longer points.

Daniel Kiernan  56:12

That'll be cool to watch actually.

Harri Heliovaara  56:14

Yeah they did. They did some some try. They tried that and the amount of like the how long the points were it was more than more than two shots longer. Wow. And currently So on average, it actually would make it more interesting for the fans to

Daniel Kiernan  56:33

Very good. And who's who's going to win the World Cup, WorldCup football.

Harri Heliovaara  56:38

Oh, what is football? We just have ice hockey here in Finland.

Daniel Kiernan  56:43

Are you following at all?

Harri Heliovaara  56:45

I have watched Yes, of course I watch. I am going to say France.

Lloyd Glasspool  56:52

I have boycotted this Kierno, no, not following. Why? Quality female gender equality workers rights. You know, there's a lot of stuff going on in that area of the country. So boycott England, Wales Tuesday night. Well, I'm torn.

Daniel Kiernan  57:13

Are you with mom? Are you? Are you with dad?

Lloyd Glasspool  57:16

The head depends if my mom's listening, I'll go for Wales, if not just England.

Daniel Kiernan  57:22

And Harry, your goal for 2023? Do you set goals? Is that something that you guys do as a pair? I know that Lloyd used to, you know and use to share a little story on Lloyd. Wherever you want it. You won a futures? I wasn't with him that week. And because he won the futures, he moved inside 400 ATP. And he called me up or I called him after the match. And his first words were What's the new goal? What's the new goal? You know? So that was very it wasn't there was no resting on laurels. It was like, right. What what's next is so is that something you guys do together? Or not necessarily?

Harri Heliovaara  58:07

We haven't done it yet, at least. But I think, yeah, for this year, it was the goal was to get into the ATP 1000. Next year, we made that easily. But our coaches told us several times we still haven't won a Grand Slam. We haven't won an ATP 1000. Those are? Those are very good goals for next year.

Daniel Kiernan  58:27

Lord, were you on goal setting these days?

Lloyd Glasspool  58:32

I mean, I don't like to put numbers or figures on them. Because I mean, like, so there, you can pass them. And then it's a bit like, Okay, what do we do now? And it's a new one. Yeah. I think we're both at the stage now, where, realistically, our goal is just number one. I don't think and you obviously can't get higher than that. So that is that kind of solves that problem. But yeah, I think our goals or goals are pretty obvious this year. Or next year. So you want to win the biggest tournaments you want to get to number one, and you can't really get any higher than that. Boys?

Daniel Kiernan  59:08

No reason why not? No reason why not. Keep doing what you're doing. My last last last question, Harri. I've asked Lloyd this before who? Who should my next guest be on Control the Controllables you you have the baton to pass on to the next person. That's how it works.

Harri Heliovaara  59:24

Wow. You should usually probably interview one of our coaches that would be interesting if they have any, any similar ideas if we want to continue on the doubles topic and on the topic of Dumb and Dumber

Daniel Kiernan  59:37

Louie Louie has been on. So Louie Louie is very much been on but maybe we might need to get Boris on next. Correct, boys. Good luck. Thank you for coming on.

Harri Heliovaara  59:49

Thank you very much.

Daniel Kiernan  59:50

Well, that was a special episode after a special year for for Harry and Lloyd and obviously a one that's very personal to us as well. Well, Vicki, it's it's great to have you back it feels a while since we've had a chat on the podcast as well. That's because

Victoria Kiernan  1:00:05

you saying that with a smile on your face, because you're the one that's been off to all these amazing places while I've been here and stuck at home,

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:13

Well you were at the Davis Cup in Malaga, as you spent three days there. So it's

Victoria Kiernan  1:00:17

True that you were lucky there, you were lucky there. That was the following week after Turin to soften the blow.

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:23

So now that it's been hours, it's been a fantastic couple of weeks of spending. And I was fortunate enough to, to spend the week with Lloyd and Harri out in Turin. And then we had the Davis Cup on our doorstep. You know, unfortunately, we hoped the British team were going to be there. But it was still brilliant to watch. Well, the Spaniards amazing are a great match with Croatia. But for the for the players at the academy to get up close and personal with all of those top players as well. It's a shame it wasn't better supported. I think, you know, that we there was a lot of spare seats, it worked to our benefit, being able to get closer to the action. But yeah, it's been a it's been a couple of weeks of being spoiled ton and joy and very top level tennis.

Victoria Kiernan  1:01:08

Yeah, the day was cut was amazing. I do think maybe the seats they were Canada, Australia, USA, they did have far fewer supporters and the European team. So that might be why numbers were down. But I don't think yeah, some of our players were complaining going from the back row to the front road filling, filling the gaps. So come on how was Turin though me and the kids were watching all week. Very, very jealous. How was it?

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:31

Well, apart from embarrassing myself on TV with my Movember. I'm not sure it's a beard, whatever that kind of fluff is on my face.

Victoria Kiernan  1:01:41

Didn't just embarrass yourself.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:42

We've raised a lot of money. And we will maybe put the link on this on this episode as well, because we've raised over 500 pounds towards a great cause. So I'm looking forward to getting the fluff off the face. But no, Turin was it was special. And I think the fact that I was there with Lloyd who starting to coach him age 10, 11 to go through that journey and watch someone go from being that 10, 11 year old who's starting out to their beat on the on the biggest stage of them all, and, and handling it with such normality, you know, just taking it completelyin his stride, as well as Harry, you know, being so close to them behind the scenes, seeing how it works at those events. And I remember Toby Smith coming on the show more a year and a half ago, he talked about when he first went to Wimbledon, with Johnny O'Mara and Scott Clayton, they had a buddy day, I remember that. And he said, I can't boys, it's a buddy day. Take your pictures. God, you sent the court, you know, like a tourist and get it out your system. And the first 24 hours for me probably felt a bit like that, you know, when you go on in to a new environment. It's like, whoa, you sat there, and there's Novak Djokovic, and there's Rafael Nadal and his team and there's Felix and, and it feels a little bit like what what is going on? What about imposter syndrome? What am I doing here? Then you're on the practice court. And obviously, we're Lloyd and Harri. And it was great to be around the Skupski brothers who are good friends of mine as well. And then you just settle and you realize it's just a normal tennis tournament, and everyone is human. Everybody has the same insecurities. Everyone has the same patterns. It just happens to be done in front of more people. It happens to be that the food's a bit nicer, and you don't have to pay for it. And I don't think I've ever eaten so much sushi and all my life, you know, just just being able to order whatever you want whenever you want, really. But they put on a great show. It was a great event talking about spectators the crowds were very high. You know, the some of the matches Kyrgios had them whipped up in a frenzy sounded like a football crowd at one point. But yeah, but just to see those guys go about their daily work. And the normalized way that they're doing that on the biggest stage was was inspiring, really, and but doing the basics. Well, you know, we're not talking about complicated, complex things. It's just having good routines, doing the basics. Well trying to get a little bit better every day. And yeah, it was a real pleasure to spend that time so thank you Harry and Lloyd for for having me and well done on a on a fantastic year.

Victoria Kiernan  1:04:32

Oh, it's been an amazing year and I've been really looking forward to this episode. You know, we know Lloyd as you said since he was little but we've done I don't know Harri at all. So I was I've been watching with our eldest who doesn't play tennis absolutely loves watching and we have just been cracking up all year. how different they are on the court. You mentioned in the chat like Harri so full of energy you get so fired up and Lloyd is just cool as a cucumber walks to the chair like no showing no emotion at all. So I, I was really interested to hear what they were like personality wise. And actually, I think they're not too dissimilar after all,

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:15

In lots of ways. No, you know, and I think, you know, one thing that it strikes me through that conversation, but also spending time with them off court last week, they're both quiet, you know, they're both relaxed, they both, they're both very switched on, you know, very switched on intelligent guys. They're both at the stage of their life where I mean, Harri, settling down with a kid, but Lloyd, he's got a lovely girlfriend, Sofia and has, has has, it has a stable, stable life as well. But I think when you do start to listen to them, they are quite different as well, you know, I mean, we see the energy on the court. And I think one thing that my learning from my take from it from the chat, and from spending time together, what makes a good team and two Lloyd's, or four Lloyds doesn't necessarily make a good team two Harri's doesn't necessarily make a good team. And this is in any form of life, you know, you don't want to have two people that are exactly the same. And think and work in exactly the same way. Because you ended up not covering all bases. And if I think about Lloyd, when Lloyd has to play the role of energy, and he gets into that emotional intensity, sometimes it doesn't work for him, actually, it goes the other way. So what works for him is that demeanor that we see on the court, which is which is very much and we'll get to this in a minute, which is incredible, not looking at the drawers not not being involved in that, you know, because, but when he does, he gets he can get overwhelmed, and that takes over. So I think Harri helps bring that energy for him, which is, which is amazing. But I think that Lloyd helps hurry not overanalyze too much, you know, and trying to get Harri to just have a bit of a smile on the day of the match is really important, because he does get quite intense. And, you know, he's like He talked about on the on the show, he's, he's thinking about the numbers, he's looking at the data, he's potentially overanalyzing so so they, they, they bounce off each other and in a really nice way. And I think it's a great example, when you are creating a team, in whatever you are doing. You want to have a little bit of Yin and a little bit of Yang, you know, and you want to be able to mash them together. And I think they do a great job. But yeah, I touched on it, Vicki, not looking at draws, we were both players when we were younger, not looking at draws not knowing rankings. I mean, the fact that they didn't, he didn't know, he didn't know what they had to do to qualify for Turin was just mind blowing to me. And the same. And I was and I must admit, I didn't know actually, if they won the last match in the box, I didn't know definitely qualified them. You know, you can kind of hide from it a little bit when you're in, in those arenas, but still fascinated, and I think an amazing, amazing lesson. And he spoke with such wisdom. He didn't realize what wisdom he spoke with there when he said, Well, what's the point? I don't? I can't control that, you know, that is that is not something that I can affect. So why waste the energy on it?

Victoria Kiernan  1:08:21

I think really, in this instance, fair play to Harri as well, because I think it would drive me a little bit mad, because I would want to be talking about it. And curiosity would get the better of me, I'd want to know, the different dynamics, the different situations, I don't think I could go into a tournament and not look at the draw. I think many people couldn't do that. So I find that absolutely amazing that he doesn't look at it, and especially the level that they're at now. You know, journalists do it. It's not just you know, you hear it all the time. Parents at tournaments are so that they'll meet in the quarterfinals. And we have to say to parents, well, hang on, there's two matches first, you know, let's concentrate one match at a time, there's no guarantee either them or get to the quarterfinals. But journalists do it as well. You know, Lloyd and Harri are on course to meet the number one seeds of the quarterfinals before they've even you know, played a match. So he has he must not be reading anything about anything that's been written about them either.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:13

But you know what I think it is an interesting topic. And I've thought about this, because I even think about my own experience last week. The majority of my tennis playing and tennis coaching has been at smaller level tournaments. And at smaller level tournaments. Everyone's chucked in a bit more together. Very few people have teams around them. So you end up almost through osmosis. Just being a bit similar to everybody else. You kind of get taken with the wave and the vibe of the tournament. It's hard to completely separate yourself. And one thing that really stood out to me last week was everybody and we even talked about it. Like Mektic-Pavic they do not practice together. They didn't Last week, so they've all got their own cultures, they're living, they're living their own lives in lots of ways. So, so the separation, I think, is much easier, because they tend to have teams around them. They take care of their business, they do what they need to do your ultra professional and everything, but then they're often they're living their life. And whether it's girlfriends, moms, dads, coaches, hitting partners, whatever it is, and they've got little small bubbles around them. And I think that in some ways, makes it a bit easier as well. Obviously, social media, don't think Lloyd's a massive social media guy, you know, if you're like me, who's on Twitter all the time, you'll, you will pick up those bits. But I thought it was fascinating. And I just thought, What a great lesson a great learning. For us, for parents, for coaches, for players, to realize you can't control those things, you know, you really can't. So focus on just getting a bit better, and putting your performance on the court

Victoria Kiernan  1:11:00

And to be accepting of your doubles partner and how they work. Like I said, fair play to Harri for understanding him and just not questioning that at all. I mean, I guess he must be playing with a real freedom. You've not got those outside pressures, or when estimator is that, you know, in those key moments, it's just playing in the moment, I guess.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:19

No that's the secret, I think. And Harri did say about the game style. And I think that is also true. You know, Lloyd's always loads always had a game style that the ball is on his racket. The point is on his racket, you know, he's not necessarily having to react so much to the opponent, you know, the way that he likes to play so I think that adds into it. But yeah, just just fascinating to get those get those insights and, and the one I'd like to also Vicki while we while we are on the topic of doubles, and British doubles, I mean, it was so nice to see you know, Neal Skupski Wesley Koolhof, finished as well number one this year, you know, a big well done to those guys and coach of Rasouli as Rob Morgan, who you know, a British guy. He then got Joe Salisbury and Rajeev Ram. And Coach those boys David O'Hare from from Ireland. And then obviously Lloyd doing what he's done with with Harri. And then we've also gotten a big shout out to Julian Cash, and Henry Patten, who have won nine ATP challenger events this year, just incredible. The plane one more this week, I believe if they make final of that, it guarantees that they're in major Australia, just a monumental effort. And the mastermind behind that, whether it's coaches, whether it's the players and just an incredible achievement that British tennis is having is Louie Cayer. And to spend a week with Louie I was furiously writing as he was talking, just downloading his mind. The guy is a genius. He's a genius. He's full of passion. He has set a blueprint out there, that almost anybody that's got the right to skills, he will create a top 10 doubles player in the world. And he'd for me will go down in the history of being one of the best ever tennis coaches. You know, yes, the big part of it's been in doubles, but nobody will has got the record that he's got. So I know he was on the podcast, we will share the link to do he's just the most downloaded podcast still that we do have, and I would say that as an episode that you can't miss. But Louis, if you're listening to it, you're a legend. Thank you for all that you do for tennis and also for British tennis.

Victoria Kiernan  1:13:41

I was thinking about it when Lloyd said, you know, Davis Cup is still his goal. How many players can say that they're, you know, fifth best player in the world? Was he number 11? Or number 10? Well,

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:53

he he's 12 1211 and 12.

Victoria Kiernan  1:13:59

So yeah, how many players are 12 in the world and not making the Davis Cup team because you've got two, two players ahead of you from Great Britain. It's amazing. And the fact we've had three world number ones in men's doubles in the last 10, 15 years or so is just amazing.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:17

And to the avid listeners out there, I would like to apologize and we've been a little bit slower with with a couple of the episodes going out in November, but we do have loads coming your way. So watch out the next the next two or three weeks, Julian Cash and Henry coming up in the next few weeks to talk about their incredible year. We've got Tamara Zidansek. We've got Dave Miley and as I've promised for a while and this one is an absolute cracker. You know, we're talking about someone who has a way with words. Robbie Koenig, the incredible commentator who was also a former top 60 in the world doubles player. So loads more to come but until next time I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables