#151: Dan Smethurst - ATP Player to WTA Coach

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Control the Controllables I'm Dan Kiernan from SotoTennis Academy in Spain, and we teamed up with Macx Tennis Academy in Ireland. We brought this podcast together to entertain, educate, and energize the tennis community through the different lenses of the sport that we love. From Grand Slam champions to those at grassroots level, from sports journalists to backroom staff. Our aim is truly to get under the bonnet of the tennis world at all levels. So sit back and enjoy the show. Welcome to Episode 151 of control the controllables and I want to start off by thanking everyone that entered our 150th podcast giveaway over the last couple of weeks. We have spun the wheel earlier today. We do have the video if anyone wants to see that we've been doing it the right way. And our winner of a free access week at SotoTennis Academy is Rosemarie O'Hara, a big congratulations to you RoseMarie. The team had Sato tennis academy. We'll be in touch with you over the next couple of days so that we can set up your access week out in Sotogrande, we'll make sure that the son is waiting and lots of brilliant tennis as well. Until the rest of you, hey, you've got to be in it to win it. Look out for our giveaways that will be coming in future. It's worth a big value. And we love building these relationships with the guys that come and see us at the academy. But now to today's episode and someone that is very well qualified to be giving us all lots of brilliant advice,

Dan Smethurst  02:01

Helping your kid to just differentiate between winning is good and losing you know, like something's gone wrong, like you can lose and do everything right. You know, like if you're trying to get better as a as a player just have the process goals as the biggest thing and just tick them off.

Daniel Kiernan  02:20

And that is former British tennis player Dan Smethurst who was a serial winner on the ITF futures circuit. Back in the day, he took his tennis to Wimbledon as a wildcard as a British tennis player. And then he moved on in and into the coaching world where he's worked with lots of top British players, including been a big part of Team Jo Konta. Over the last few years before she recently retired. And Dan also his his father Nigel, was anyone that knows British tennis will know Nigel as the physio that goes around all of the professional and junior tournaments, and has given so much to the game over the last few years. And as I say, I do believe this qualifies Dan, to have an insight through many different lenses. And I loved the conversation, we go down a few little rabbit holes, which I hope that you will enjoy. And once again, I think he's a brilliant guest. So sit back and enjoy. Dan Smith Hearst. So Dan Smith Hearst a big welcome to control the controllables How you doing?

Dan Smethurst  03:35

I'm good. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me on. Real pleasure. I've listened to a lot of these. So I'm looking forward to it.

Daniel Kiernan  03:42

Well, looks maybe eight. It is an honor when I hear that and a few people have said it. And when I first hear it, I'm like, come on, there's no way. There's no way anyone's listening to these. But when that comes across and now you get to see that it's just a couple of guys Sat Sat in their living rooms, you know, having a bit of open honest tennis chat. You know, I'm sure there's lots we're gonna get into. But I guess as the starting point, as always with these podcasts, I think it always intrigues me how that bud started, you know, how does the tennis bug starting your head? When did when did that begin and what was your memories of that?

Dan Smethurst  04:27

My style probably like everyone else started doesn't it parents really a kind of like into it. My dad liked tennis, and he coached like a little bit just like local clubs. And I loved sport. So from Manchester loved football, like just loved it and I loved anything competitive. And then just started going with him to local clubs. He gave a few lessons and then I think he just kind of happened to be honest. Like it was good fun, local clubs, lot of kids around you get like friends with some like other kids and then you start going like, you know, you want to socialize there a little bit and then and then and then you just turn out you're a bit you're alright at tennis. So it goes a bit further and then you get a bit better. And it goes a bit further again, doesn't it? It was quite organic, really.

Daniel Kiernan  05:24

But it started again that the thing that gets me there with that is it started with Okay, your dad wasn't a professional tennis coach as such, but he was doing a bit of coaching. Do you think if you didn't have parents of you don't have a parent that almost like you said, organically fits into their life? Do you think? Hmm, I guess that is that a little bit of a different way? How do we then get people into tennis? Because it seems like we're there's a filter that brings people into tennis naturally, maybe there's not there's not a way of getting people in are attracting people in that don't happen to have a parent that is organically down at tennis club.

Dan Smethurst  06:05

Yeah I think it's it's nails to, to get them in if like the parent or someone they know, isn't involved in tennis. But I feel like you see that a lot in other countries that that is how it happens, though, is quite organic with a lot of these people. Like they have a lot of clubs, you know, takes like, Germany, Italy, it just feels like their parents play, then they get a bit older the kids play and then it is this kind of like cyclical thing that comes around and maybe it's a bit more accessible in in some ways than it is in than it is in the UK. Sometimes. It's it's middle class, it's quite expensive, isn't it? Really. But it is a natural, I think I think the best way is is to have a natural kind of like, yeah, organic way it seems to seems to work in other countries. I suppose you just need more and more people playing. Yeah. Which is difficult because we got some big sports here, and we football and everything like that. It's it's tricky. But it's a great sport. Also, it's tricky for kids, isn't it? I mean, it's such a difficult sport, that you don't pick it up. And it's not you can't have a rally straightaway. So it's not it's like instant gratification doesn't come. So then you've got to know it's a tricky one, isn't it?

Daniel Kiernan  07:23

Yeah. And also you. You don't necessarily play in big groups. You know, you I guess you turn up to a football there's about 15 of you 20 of you probably got three, four or five minutes. That in that in that regard. So that makes me also think though because a lad from Manchester, you know, football, especially a club like Manchester City, obviously massive in Manchester.

Dan Smethurst  07:50

Or you asked me on just where Newcastle get loads of money. It's so weird.

Daniel Kiernan  07:57

I've been holding back I've been I've been waiting a long time. Yeah. But but but coming from Manchester, you mentioned football, you liked football, you're a competitive sporting lad, you know, you can, you know, I saw that with you around when you were younger. When you're at tournaments, you can see the players that have that they're just like sports, you know, they want to talk about or they want to talk about all of those different things. So So what was it that got you to tennis over football, as well, or were you just not very good at football.

Dan Smethurst  08:32

You know? Honestly, like, I think I was just quite good at tennis quite younger, like, I don't know, if you remember, like, I was actually quite good from like seven or eight years old. I was already like went to tournaments in Europe, like, you know, like the under 10 ones or the under 11 I was already like, finals and winning them. So I think it just kind of like happened to be honest, like if I was I did love football but I was like started to come out of school to play tennis and stuff like that quite young and like crispy who was like the county coach at the time started like, scouted me and started working with me at like seven years old. So we got pretty serious pretty quick in terms of how and then I just loved it at that age, like proper loved it, like love to play in the tournaments. Love, like, getting tasks, like given by Chris like to come back and do them. I don't know, like it was something like a structured or do it and I was like yeah, I was all over it at that age. Yeah. 100%. And

Daniel Kiernan  09:33

And that age again, for those for those listening. So I'm sure you've heard was like the three Dans, wasn't it at that sort of that sort of period. And in the northwest of England. There was also a Dan Cox Yeah. You know, that came over to Bolton with you at quite a young age. Is that correct? Well, I remember who he was. Yeah,

Dan Smethurst  09:54

I mean, he definitely he did move to Bolton for a little bit because he thought that, you know, I was at it better than me at that time, I think so I'll go to Bolton. So that was the magic dust that was just lost. And then you know, and then he got more attention than me or went to your went to party.

Daniel Kiernan  10:13

No, he was. Your big rival was Dan Cox, your big rival?

Dan Smethurst  10:16

He was like, honestly, like 910 11. Yeah. 100% and then EVO just kind of snuck in and he got really good. And

Daniel Kiernan  10:27

how much because I, I have a vague memory of it, but that was at the time. I remember someone saying, oh, there's these two boys are great in order to dance. Dan Dan smothers Dan Cox. And that was when I mean, there was better players than myself training of Bolton. But, you know, David Sherwood, Johnny, Marray Andrew banks, you know, Richard Crabtree, Justin Lane. Jason Torpy, there was a big thing going on at Bolton. Do you have a memory of that? Do you think leaders hand right? Okay. And what what impact do you think that had having? I guess, players thought that we were great people to look up to maybe but having players that were playing on the Pro two or playing Grand Slams that were on your doorstep and in your day to day world? What impact do you think that add on? Yeah,

Dan Smethurst  11:13

yeah, I remember it. I remember it being really good. I mean, I couldn't believe it was getting to hit I was honestly getting to hit with some of you guys sometimes so young. I remember thinking like surely not gonna let me hit like, even like what they did. You must have been so annoyed. Yeah, I was like, oh, but yeah, I mean, it was an unbelievable lucky kind of situation to be in and it kind of fell in I mean, we we get mad go that when they're when it just kind of like opened. And then. Yeah, just in lane, like you say it was kind of like was it coaching them

Daniel Kiernan  11:48

playing a show he played and then he started doing some fitness coaching. Yeah. And there was there was a big group and actually, unfortunately, there was that time. So it just happened that a few of us started to win some futures and do okay. So they actually came and took myself David Sherwood, Andrew Banks and Johnny Marray and took us down to Queens, Queens, right when it when it was working, and they made it quite a challenge at that time for us to stand Bolton. Yeah, the best way to get to a tennis player is through the through their wallet. The wallet was attacked. And I think it kind of went downhill a little bit then after those players, but it was certainly for kind of 12, 18 month period, it was the place to be you know, there was a real, like, I would call it a there was a team. And I think it's quite hard to get a team in tennis. Yeah. You know, so having that having that team working together. And I guess you you on the outskirts of that as a youngster, it's obviously a good introduction to it, you know? No,

Dan Smethurst  12:58

100% Yeah, I remember like that, that time, I was lucky because I was working with like, crispy and the Nick Lawrence. I mean, very well, I had those two. And it was just an unbelievable kind of like setup. And then I got the chance to go to like one of the academies in Loughborough on the go when first and then and then just like, like you say, kind of like after you guys left, I think it kind of the setup of everything. And then suddenly, like my structure in the in the program wasn't great. And then I probably got left behind actually, by the other kids, I went from like being really, really good to like 50 in the age group pretty quick, in a matter of like, a year or two. And then I end up going to, like Loughborough after that. So

Daniel Kiernan  13:47

a bit of a discussion point here I think is and I was speaking of sport. I speak to a lot of a lot of people, obviously on the podcast, but I also have a lot of conversations, whether it's in Spain or wherever it's wherever it's at tournaments. There's consistently been this situation where when something is working, I guess the latest one is obviously Emma Raducanu. I'm not close to it, I can't have a big comment on it. But something's working. You don't change it, you know, I would you know, in terms of you might scrutinize it, but time and time and time again. It's been something that has happened. And it almost feels as if there's a hierarchy, it's like you you can do a really good job of this young kid until they're 12. But when they turn 13 no way, you are not a 13 year old coach. And and this person now is the 13 year old coach. And I don't believe that's necessarily a global thing. You know, because I've know I've spoken a lot around that. So so when you look back at your time, do you think it was the best thing at the time for you to leave home and go to Loughborough Yeah,

Dan Smethurst  15:03

yeah, yeah, well, yeah, it was, there's no doubt, it was the right time for me. Like, it was 100% a little bit of, you know, especially like, you know, family stuff, kind of like sometimes it's good to kind of have a have a bit of space from that. And I think that helped me a little bit. I was lucky because Mark Taylor was there, and Layton Alfred at the time, there were massive influences on me. I'm not saying the academy system works, or 100, you know, like, everything like that. But that culture that time, and then lucky enough to have Matt Little there at the time, and I was really unfit. And then had three or four years with those, I think I got very lucky in that period, because that was 100% the right thing I could have stopped like playing if I didn't go there and didn't like it. Like I was on the borderline of like, like, I've already nearly had my feel and like that, that brought a lot of love back, even at that young age, because that's the thing. That's the problem with tennis when it gets intense, too quick. Sometimes. I was almost honestly, not playing and I was like, 13 years old. It's sometimes it's too much, isn't it? I

Daniel Kiernan  16:17

Can be Yeah,

Dan Smethurst  16:18

I think yeah, it can be you know, like, and I think just being around like other kids constantly, I think it helps in that situation, you know, you saying before about, it's quite secluded, I think like, you know, going going to trips together as more team events for the youngsters would be so much more healthier than then just having it all solo from such a young age. But I mean,

Daniel Kiernan  16:44

And when you said some heavy about it was too much with the family was were you did you have pressure on you from from parents was the was the relationships that you felt? Yeah.

Dan Smethurst  16:58

It's an intensity, you know, like comes and it's through like, me and my parents, it was more my, you know, the Dad at that age, like, we have such a good relationship, but at that time, they think they're trying to help so much. And they, they're doing everything they can to help their child. So it's not in a bad way at all, but they don't feel because who's done it before, it's their first time as well. But they're the intensity is like so strong on a child, you know, and they don't know it. They're just trying to help their child. So it's a difficult one, it's such a difficult one to as a parent, I'm not a parent, but I can only imagine how difficult it is to be honest.

Daniel Kiernan  17:38

Well, I think that's the one I mean, I obviously have it myself, because I'm now I was telling you off air, obviously, I'm an academy director, I'm a tennis coach, I've been through it as a player, and also to a decent level as a coach. So sometimes, you know too much as well, in some ways, but then the feeling that you do get, and I've got all the perspective in the world, on my page for my children with regards to tennis, but you do get an intense feeling when you're watching them. Because especially when they're in a, they're in a tight moment, or you're you're worried about how they're going to behave, or they're going to perform to how you know they can, how they're going to how they're feeling in all of these things. So when they come off the court, the natural reaction as a parent, is to get out what you want to say, right? Because you've, you've you've almost been watching going well, they're not doing that, and they're not doing that. And that worked when they did that. So So I'm now I'm helping them if I just tell them. Yeah, it whereas which I really try not to, you know, and I'm not saying I'm perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And the other one is when they're in the car journeys, I always think that the classic is the car journey. And it's like, how do you make, and I really consciously try and do this when it's been a difficult match. And there's there's that and maybe lost a match and not performed or maybe not behaved? Right. How do you make that car journey? Fun? Yeah. Right. So that the player doesn't associate a bad performance with with with another room?

Dan Smethurst  19:22

Yeah, it can.

Daniel Kiernan  19:24

It can have such a or, or when you when we're after we're after McDonald's, you know,

Dan Smethurst  19:32

is a strong connection, isn't it? I think every you know, you speak to so many tennis players and self esteem and winning is so intertwined. And I think it is because of the young age, you know, like it's so serious, so quick. And I think if you can somehow, you know, like exactly what you're doing. separate the two. And then you know, then it's easier when you get older if you want to keep playing or just in general, like winning and so you know, it's not just that Tennis is it just general life. And living is not combined with winning at things or doing this or doing that. Or it shouldn't be, you know, fully anyway.

Daniel Kiernan  20:11

So if you were to give the listeners, one learning and this might be from a playing perspective, a coaching perspective, or a parental perspective, what would your number one bit of advice be? In those kinds of years of eight to 14?

Dan Smethurst  20:31

Listen, it's a difficult one because tennis, you can't say don't do anything and like dark because people kids are playing so much. But it's just help you're, like, help your kid to just differentiate between winning is good. And losing, you know, like, something's gone wrong, like you can lose and do everything right. You know, like, if you're trying to get better as a, as a player, just have the process goals, like as the biggest thing and just tick them off. So like, if you're going to analyze anything, just have like, did you have did you try that? You know, wherever you're the things are, but have like, that's what you hold yourself to. And if you do them, you know that rather than winning and the loser you know, it's just too much for a kid so young, so just have different things that is not the result as the thing if you're going to talk about anything, talk about those. That's one thing I'd say

Daniel Kiernan  21:34

So you one very early, you dropped slightly when one to five's not a massive drop. So

Dan Smethurst  21:41

One by a long way, a massive drop

Daniel Kiernan  21:50

Like a Man United type drop?

Dan Smethurst  21:52

Yeah, it's honestly I think someone said that the other day reminds me of you when you attend.

Daniel Kiernan  22:00

So for Man United fans, by the way, if you haven't picked up yet, Dan is a big man united fan. But if you if you are a Man United fan, there's still hope guys, because Dan managed to get back onto onto the straight and narrow and start to win again. Because you ended up as top 30 in the world, Junior I believe, you know, so you went out? Yeah, really? So what So what you mean by somehow what

Dan Smethurst  22:23

If I honestly better because like, I honestly played bad. We're not played bad, but I wasn't that good. And I had like two good results in in a year. And that's because it's six results as a junior you like top 30 But to be honest, I was average a lot in that. And I had one like win on a grade one and one file of Roehampton so I suppose some level was in there. But the consistency was, was nowhere near

Daniel Kiernan  22:52

it was that not tennis to a degree. I mean, even and I talked about Raducanu again, just because it jumped to my head, she won the US Open. And she has not done a whole lot else. She's 13 in the world. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it and I guess when you I remember Johnny Marray, they Johnny was living with Johnny at the time. And he would like lose first ran for three, four months. And then he would always have this two month period where nobody could get a passing shot past him. You know, like he just added a little bit extra to his chip in charge slides. And he would especially if there were Russians, Russians couldn't beat him. But he would go like and have six or seven really good tournaments every two months every year, and his ranking would hang around 200 You know, because of that. So I guess you may be downplaying it a little bit you you have to be a good tennis player. If you if you're winning grade ones are gone deep in the grade ones and, and being a Grand Slam junior player.

Dan Smethurst  23:56

Yeah, I mean, probably was some good tennis in there. But I remember so much. So it was so bad. It was unbelievable. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I played I feel like I got a lot better the first year out of juniors is why I say that like a lot better. Like straight out of it like there was a different Yeah, I was at a big jump. The first year out. I went I think it was like 303 on the 50 BIOS 90 You know the first year out or like first year and a bit out compared to some of the tennis I was playing in juniors that's why I look at it thinking Bloody hell. You know, the level wasn't great there.

Daniel Kiernan  24:34

Why such a jump? Any any any reflections on that? You know?

Dan Smethurst  24:38

I was trying, man like I was trying hard. I had a little bit yeah, a little bit of a moment where things clicked. A change changed. I had a good change in Racket, whereas a bit of a junior racket I played with what I got as a sponsor. I actually changed racket and I couldn't believe the difference that that made At one point, like it was quite unbelievable. I must have been playing with an absolute. I might have been playing with a wooden bat. Like honestly, it was that much of a difference. And as soon as I changed racket my results went crazy good. Was that was a big thing. It was weird. But equipment obviously is important. And as a junior, I think when you get sponsored, you're so happy to actually get whatever you give it. And I never tried any rackets out. And then I tried different racket. I was like, I won't name the racket I was using it was awful.

Daniel Kiernan  25:31

If it was the same one that I because I was again, or maybe not named the rackets but I used a bit of an old older racket that I'd had. I'd used it in the juniors and at US college. And I just, I'd loved it. And then they actually went out of existence this particular racket, not the brand. So again, ego took over and company came in and offered me a deal not to be paid any money but just be given some rackets Yeah, so loving that I was loving it. And I was like a cricket bat. And, and I actually reflected a few years later, and I mean on the double court, but on the singles courts, I'd gone, I'd won one futures, and some like seven, seven doubles futures in out of the last 10 tournaments. And then when if there's new racket I use for six months. I didn't win one tournament or get close to any one tournament. And then I won. Then I changed and I actually just not long before Wimbledon, I actually went on to eBay and and found three of my old rackets on eBay, that because it wasn't being made anymore, bought them on it bought them on eBay. And when we would and didn't, the racket wasn't that good. Unfortunately, it was your best story ever. That was it. I kept looking on eBay to see if I could get one of those ones that would win Wimbledon. But it never worked. But

Dan Smethurst  26:59

a marriage got a couple of exactly.

Daniel Kiernan  27:02

All about the racket, but it was something like 11 out of 14 tournaments and doubles were one after it. So it makes it makes a monumental difference mentally more than anything else. But I'm not I'm not letting you have that as being the only thing. So was it the in juniors, you were protecting a ranking? You were protecting a place and maybe playing a little bit in that way. And then all of a sudden, you you broke free? And were able to start actually expressing yourself a bit more on court? Was there anything to do with that?

Dan Smethurst  27:36

Yeah, I think I think I was like, I think probably a little bit of maturity in that time. There was probably some good tennis in there. But I was very too tense in juniors to actually express in it, any of it. And then I kind of liked the you know, for some people, it's difficult that the transition from juniors to seniors, but for me, I don't know, I felt a bit freer I think playing playing the seniors just go you have a good crack, and then it and then I realized that I wasn't because we've been working hard. Like, the physical stuff, especially when it's NTC. Like 17 Like, the fitness was, like we were we're we're getting put through the paces. And I think we're ready physically to like to win matches when the tennis was ready. Yeah, I think. And I think that came a little bit, you know, when I was like, 1920 had a nice little nice run up there a little bit.

Daniel Kiernan  28:37

And was was US college ever an option for you?

Dan Smethurst  28:42

You know, I honestly, you know, because I, I thought at that age for me at still, I thought it was retiring, going to US college, that there was no info really, you know, unless you kind of like knew someone who'd gone or something like that. I honestly thought like, I thought as I was going to retire, I should go to college. And I had no information that that was a good route. Because now I honestly I think there's, you know, scenarios you got to watch out for but I am a I am a good big fan of the US system. 100% I am you know, like if you're, unless you've unless you've got a big technical change to make where I don't think you're going to go there. And that's going to happen because they're obviously quite heavy on results, you know, not but you know, it's gonna be difficult to make a big technical change when you're there I think. But if you're there, like you're pretty technically sound and you can just go there and mature and develop and physically mature. Like it's such a good system. I mean, obviously you you went in you so you must be all that,

Daniel Kiernan  29:49

But Well, I do but I guess well, I think it's done a little bit of a full circle. I think it's it's, it's about the individual and not a little bit cliche. Uh, but it is, you know, is because I think, as with anything, I guess, working in a team, having having a group of lads to travel with works for some people, you know, wouldn't have worked for Kyle Edmund, you know, having, you know, college college I think works for works for certain people, certain people might go off the rails or for they've

Dan Smethurst  30:22

Would they have gone off the rails anyway. Yeah. Well,

Daniel Kiernan  30:27

I think it all, it all depends I think it depends on financial situation. You know, if you're, I think if you're the I guess the rule I almost having my hand if you're, if you're not playing to the tenets of going to semis, and fervor and futures, to pretty much at the tournaments you're playing. So if you're a semis, and further futures player, you're probably around 506 100 in the world, at least, if you're not at that level, or you don't have significant financial backing, to do it properly. And to be spending time on the road with coaches, you know, having having your cert having your coach, then 100% American University is the right route, in my opinion. Because if you're in a situation where it's like me calling you up and saying, Dan, you want to have a hit tomorrow. I mean, there's there's there's people trying to play professional tennis, that are trying to arrange hits, right, a day to day basis, you know, there's, so if you're if you're in that situation, then absolutely US college, US college is the way forward. But I think it's it's quite eye opening to me because I'm almost 10 years older than you. It felt like that when I went but it's amazing that 10 years on it's still felt like that. Whereas now I do worry now that almost everyone's just going, okay, just just off you go, everyone gave us College, rather than being a little bit more selective on what is right for, for the person. But without question. It's an amazing, it's an amazing thing.

Dan Smethurst  32:01

And I think like the you know, from I don't know so much about it, but I feel like the LTA doing maybe a bit of a better job to learn the coaches. You know, that's what it feels like from the outside that they're learning. Okay, that coach is good. That will work with that, but because I always thought that was the key as well, you know, can't just send them off, like, start to know the coaches. I mean, like I say to me, I mean, I'm not on the inside, but it does feel like they're doing that a little bit better. Now,

Daniel Kiernan  32:29

I always think Federation's should even place a coach or two at a school.

Dan Smethurst  32:34

Like, if like an insider.

Daniel Kiernan  32:36

Well, yeah, but if you let's say, let's say someone like yourself, let's say someone like that, who they trust can develop, to develop a young young player in the age of 18 to 22. Now, get you to be apply, right and work with the University for you to be the head coach of the University of well not even say a real one, the University of wherever. Now, if they did that, what they would have is they would have in the men's side, they would have four and a half scholarships every year to give and you're the you're the coach who's head coach, now you want to get the best players, it's legal, because you would be going well, I'll have the four or five best British juniors every year then you're you're doing amazing so you're keeping your job you know and the team

Dan Smethurst  33:28

Know your plans out that well.

Daniel Kiernan  33:31

By the way, John Smithers doesn't have a degree I don't think so he can't do it. But Dan Kiernan has a degree so if anyone's listening and wants to go ahead Hey University of UCLA San Diego wherever you want me to go, I'm ready to go but no, I think I think it's I think it's an amazing I think it's an amazing opportunity there for for some Federation in and I'm sure there might be reasons why it can't happen. But I definitely think the the LTA have bought into it but But back to you one of the questions I always like to ask you guys who are still relatively free I know you're coaching now and you've got some good experience there. What's one thing you would change about your pro career

Dan Smethurst  34:17

Yeah, I would have I would have taken more risks you know a bigger tournament I think I got so comfortable playing futures like to the point where I really struggled to go to challengers one they were on a bit of a pedestal for me mentally where I thought it was massive change and two I got so kind of like comfortable having like one or two warm up matches because that's what it felt like in futures like a go there breeze through a couple and then and then start playing well, whereas I think with challengers like the levels not crazy different but you do have to play well. You have to put your game I'm out, like, quicker. And I really struggled to do that, to be honest. And I never learned how to do it. And I think, you know, there's reasons why for sure. But I think if you're forced into the situation, then maybe you learn it quicker. You know, I wish it had not thought so much about like the 250. Mark, like, you know, getting Wimbledon and like playing Wimbledon was amazing, not like you're wrong, but like, it's not what you dream of as a kid getting to 250s here. So I think there was some things around, I just wish it a thought bigger, you know, like, to have a bit more perspective had a bit more distance, in terms of like six months down the line. So I think it would have maybe just made my whole outlook on my game a bit longer term rather than shorter term. That's definitely one thing.

Daniel Kiernan  35:48

I think that's a great, great answer, like really, really good. I think. I think there's, there's a lot of learnings in that one answer that you've given some heavy, and because if we take the facts you, you, I'm gonna actually I'm not gonna tell you how many I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you that in a quiz in a minute. But in terms of in terms of what you're saying around the 250, Mark, I I'm a firm believer, and I've expressed it on the podcast many times in the most respectful way that I ever could about Wimbledon, which is the greatest sporting event in the world. For me. I personally believe it's fundamentally bad for British tennis. In in the level of player development, not not it's not bad for British tennis in terms of the exposure, in terms of the money in terms of having this amazing event. Yeah. But like you, like you've alluded to there. I believe British tennis players, in the most part over the last 30 years, have set boundaries and ceilings for themselves based on, and I certainly I 100% did it 100% 100% I had to be 150 to get into doubles. My career high ranking, my career high ranking was 150.

Dan Smethurst  37:10

No way. No way. And,

Daniel Kiernan  37:12

And, and I and the other thing that I did is I used to look at everyone else's ranking. So if I was top, if I was in the top two or three and Britain, they've got to give me a wildcard. Right? I've got to say God, so and, and I got I was British number 1, 2, 3 or 4 for for a couple of years. You know, and I think I think it's human nature that we we tend to reach where we think we reach and when we're talking about something as amazing as as tennis and being in the margins that come in at the at those levels. I just I think it really does. So I I love that. Absolutely love that because I think there's a big learning and I think a lot of people if they're honest, would have a similar answer. There was a time and I remember I actually may still have a video that was trying to we were I was in Sunderland. I guess I was with Lloyd Glasspool. Maybe. And at that time, you you were hot. You were like on a hot streak. Yeah, you know, maybe 2014 Maybe, yes. And, and you were you were on it. And we at the time, I was having big discussions with our fitness coach around warming up for matches. Right and, and he was into like a real detailed warm up there, which which look, I'm not against real detail, warm, warm up at all. But I was trying to show that the realities of some of these guys out there playing and I've got like I had a I took a sneaky video of you, I think it was in my car, and it was changing. And you you were like running up a hill by the car park and doing something unbelievably basic. But But at that point, it looked like you were you just weren't going to lose, you know, you certainly weren't going to lose many, many matches at all you've mentioned and it makes complete sense about not being brave enough to put yourself into into the challenger arena enough. It's that same barrier thing I think a little bit I've seen it with other players were in their head. Do I now belong at that next level? Yeah, that aside, what do you think is the difference between the levels?

Dan Smethurst  37:36

It's a little bit of everything, isn't it when you look at it, I mean, you know, obviously I've been at the moment I'm like flirting between futures and challenges with Aidie McHugh and if you know you take it's less rubbish to be honest. You know less rubbish in games not I mean, every single level cuts out a little bit more rubbish if you want to say and every single level gets a little bit better in terms of behind the serve, I think, like closer to the lines, and then behind the third ball that doing more with it, you know, just a little bit more. And on the third ball, they're a little bit close to the baseline. And then they'll level up, getting close to the lines again on the surf, and then hitting that close to the baseline and a bit more. The ball speed, like, it's pretty, I mean, it's crazy high on the ATP now like crazy high like, but you know, I was looking for futures last week, and I was interested to see what some of the qualities and I was like looking at the ball speed compared to like, five, six years ago, when I was playing, it's gone up on the physicality on the shot, no doubt it's gone up. But when, like I saw where they were touching the ball, like there was like quite far back in the core. So even though the ball speed had gone up a lot, they're still not comfortable to touch it closer to the line to actually do some real damage with a shot. And I think, yeah, so come back to your question. I think, you know, you just don't get away with as much, you know, the challenges you don't get away with as much you've got to be more quality more often. And then the higher level goal, it goes like that again, you know?

Daniel Kiernan  41:14

And what about the because you were you were in that period of time when it was kind of Andy Andy was was not just coming through Andy had come through, but Andy was kind of sat there on his own. Yeah, as the as the only British top 100 player and not only was your top 100 player was winning grand slams. And, and I remember that point reading, there was quite a lot of negative energy towards the towards the next group. And you were whether you were British number three, four, or five, six, you You were very much in that next group. And I always used to think well hold on a minute, it might be that some of these players, they are reaching their potential by being 250 in the world, you know that and they do everything they possibly can. How did that feel to be in that in that sort of group at that time? Do you think that had a an effect on you? Guys?

Dan Smethurst  42:09

I do think so I don't think we've got it. All right. In all honesty, from in every aspect. I think that those players that when I look back, apart from like, you know, the we're kind of bringing each other down at points, and I like not Evo because Evo was, you know, in and out. And you know, when he was there, he didn't really, and like not Alex Ward, I think he like, put himself but like, there was a couple of others. With us actors, honestly, I was like we're bringing it like, we're bringing each other down here. You know, like it was almost got to a point where, you know, like, as long as you're doing better than them, it didn't matter if you weren't doing well, like 100%. And I think the support at the NTC at that point, was really poor in terms of without they didn't I don't think they meant this. But it was so conditional, you know, like it was so you were doing well. Oh, yeah, you know, a lot of attention. And then you'd had a couple of bad weeks. And it was like, oh, we need to change everything. You know. And I think that we had a lot of good, good coaches, really good coaches, in fact, at that point, all trying their best, but the communication between them all. Like when I look back, and I think about how, you know, I think it was quite poor, the fact that you go, you know, a coach, two weeks, this one, and then two weeks that one and they wouldn't, and then you'd be working on different things. For the two different weeks. I just did the whole when I look back at the whole thing that was like, I wasn't mature enough. That was a big thing as well. Like, I was very, like, closed and singular. And this week and this day, but without thinking, does this day, marry up to the next day? I'm actually working towards something, or am I just working hard every day? And I think that was you know, so I can definitely I think that was a big reason why, you know, obviously I didn't go further. But then the whole Yeah, the whole thing. Without, you know, I don't think anyone had any bad intentions. But I don't think the atmosphere was good. To be honest.

Daniel Kiernan  44:15

I mean, I don't I was at that point. When I'd been in Spain for a few years, I was a coach that I was seeing it from from an outsider and it never, I never had a great  perception of the that group of British players, you know, it felt, but if I go back to my generation, it felt the same. Right? And probably if you go back another generation, if just exactly that bringing just bringing each other down. Yeah, can I

Dan Smethurst  44:44

just because I'm around like the younger guys at the moment. And I don't know listen, it'll go where it'll go. But I think they've got a much better kind of like atmosphere between the more than we had when I look at it. It's like they're pushing each other forward. More than we did I just feel that I don't know whether it's you know, you don't know. But from the, from, like the outlook of it. So it got me thinking about the exact question. I was like, we didn't we didn't push each other forward, you know, definitely not.

Daniel Kiernan  45:14

And that's what I loved about US college as well. Because US college, you had that you would have that natural, because you're on the same team. So but how powerful that was, as well as on a daily basis to have people that were if you had a bad day, actually spoke to Josh Ward hibbott on this and that this, this story might bring it together better than my story. And obviously, he's playing professional basketball now. Yeah. And, and I spoke to him and I said, Look, what, you know, how is it and the differences and no, we went for a coffee a couple of years ago, and he said, the big difference is he said, Now, he said, tennis, by the way, is the hardest sport in the world, you know, certainly harder than than the basketball. He said, because when I had a good day in tennis, nobody was there to humble me. Right. And when I saw the high was very high, but when I had a bad day, again, no one was there, because I'm competing against everyone. The laws were really low. So the range was massive, which I can completely go with. Yeah, and I'm sure you can, is that whereas in basketball if I have a really good day, I've got another 10 guys telling me all right, man, just chill out. You know, like, yeah, on the ground. And if I have a bad day, I've got 10 guys that really bring me up. So the you said the range feelings that I have? A so much so much more narrow?

Dan Smethurst  46:44

Yeah. And that's healthy really, isn't it? It's got to be more balanced is so much more healthier than these highs and lows for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  46:51

It's got to be and I think that that's something that in our sport, I believe the losing is the thing that kills people in our sport. And and that's why that's why I think so many people will give up and give up and be quite cynical about it. So if we jump ahead to you now as a coach, dealing with dealing with a player you know, obviously you you've high profile and spend time with your content, which we'll we'll get on to working with at McHugh right now you worked at work to bath you know, you've been around players now for a few years. How do you as a coach, help a player when they are having not just a down day, but they've lost two, three first rounds? Know what sort of techniques and how have you used your experience to help them? Yeah,

Dan Smethurst  47:39

it's like you say isn't, is just zooming out, like getting perspective on situations that you're going to be in tough moments. And tough moments come and tough moments go and good moments come and good moments can't like go you know, so like getting stuck, you know, ruminating on on certain feelings or thoughts. You just try and pull them out by just taking them to a long like, thinking longer, you know, zooming out of that situation? Because it's important, isn't it? So you lose one match, like you say you think you need to change everything and stuff, but actually, it's so close. It's so close. And yes, that's all you can say, isn't it? Like, you know, having a good understanding of yourself, and your own game and everything like that, watching yourself a lot. I think it helps keep things quite together and grounded. And then listen, when bad results come as well. There's always reasons behind it. You know, there'll be very individual reasons when we're, you know, if it's rarely where's that come from kind of thing. You know, there's, there's reasons why so you're probably already talking about that stuff that's happening anyway. So generally wouldn't be a shock if you're in those situations, and you didn't know that player and person well enough. You know, I've worked quite individually for the last four years. So you really know what's going on with someone in an academy setup. I'm sure it's is more difficult, you know, when you've got more, more and more people. But yeah, I mean, taking distance and perspective on things. It's, it's so important. But

Daniel Kiernan  49:23

I think you say that there's, I guess there's there's positives and negatives of working one on one with a player or an analyst positives and negatives of working in an academy where there's a few players and and I think the one that fascinates me with someone that uses heavy is in a role that you've had working with a high profile player when you worked with jaw, you know, 2019 semifinalist of the French Open, you know, we're talking real business end of the sports here, you know, and whereas, when you work with a few players is and it's not quite going right and you're okay to kind of move on because it doesn't necessarily affect your income. It does. So the feeling of intensity, how was that intensity of working with someone who's pushing to win grand slams?

Dan Smethurst  50:19

Yeah, it was just eye opening in the terms of like the depths, you kind of like go to you know, when it's when it is the end of slams? How much is unbelievable you know, it's not how much energy and energy regulation that player needs is it was really good and really eye opening and just to see how difficult and long those weeks are because we were looking at the French came a bit quick in terms of it was a bit like unexpected, but then you know, Wimbledon just after it she made quarters and it was a bit more expected you know, like she was playing well in practice like and then you kind of like feel the expectations brewing a little bit and then it's amazing like yeah, how how much mental strength you need in like to get through and like to not use all your energy on one match. So it's you know, unbelievably hard to go on and to Grand Slam match and think I don't I can't use all my energy here because I need it for the next round but it's so it's kind of like Let think it's like a meditation kind of let things come let things go when you're on the match that Yeah, I mean, it was an unbelievable experience in that year for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  51:36

And how do you now go from Roland Garros semi finals? And and it's like drinking a nice bottle of wine isn't it you know, you have a really nice bottle of wine. It's not easy to now go and drink a bottle from Aldi, you know. So so so Roland Garros at

Dan Smethurst  51:57

McHugh a bottle of Aldi.

Daniel Kiernan  52:00

Sorry, sorry. Sorry. It was it was more aimed at the tournament's than the rollin, rollin gabbros 15k into Knizia, as an example, you know, how does that work as a coach? Or is that just part of

Dan Smethurst  52:24

what you know what it is me coaching is coaching? Honestly, is it doesn't matter? It honestly doesn't matter, does it? Yeah, like, you know, the hotels are a bit nicer, and all that stuff. But apart from that you're in it with that player, and you're just trying to get them better. And like, you know, for Joe was trying to get to win grand slams, and then fade is it like, you know, the step by step level that he's at is, it honestly, is not really changed at all, it's maybe slightly more not more interesting. It's different. But you know, I feel like there's because he's maybe younger and a bit more if his development is going on, there is more facets to the stuff that's going on. So it's quite interesting in that you have to, you know, there's a bit more development, whereas Joe, when I started working with her, she's already an unbelievable player that, like she dropped a little bit, but the level was obviously there. And it was just like enriching, small, tiny, tiny bits that helped to kind of like, get back up there a little bit for that year. But yeah, it's the same mate. If you love it, you love it, don't you?

Daniel Kiernan  53:31

Well, there's two there's two moments for me because it's, and again, it's not cheesy saying but it's, I don't have a better way of seeing it right now. But is, is the the journey and the destination? You know, and I think, I think when people are younger, and parents, coaches, players, they're fixated on the destination. And yeah, once I get there, it's all gonna be alright. Everything. Yeah, no, like, there's two moments that I really had taught me that that's not the case, one as a player. I remember winning my first and only singles futures title in India, coming through qualifying, you know, brutal conditions, massive matches, same with it and won the doubles the same week. And then I went out to an Indian restaurant on my own that night, sat there thinking, this is crap.

Dan Smethurst  54:25

The food or

Daniel Kiernan  54:26

The feeling! I didn't, it didn't it didn't give me it didn't give me the satisfaction that I thought I thought once you start winning futures, everything's going to be sorted. But it didn't and then the second one was when I was with Evan Hoyt, and yes, mixed doubles, but mixed doubles at Wimbledon came out the blue didn't even think he was going to be playing Wimbledon that year. He'd lost in quallies. And all of a sudden a few days later, he's you know, him and Eden Silva have won these matches. Quarterfinals at Wimbledon, amazing experience a Wimbledon Run, you know, all of these type of things. And that night going out for a meal, the stress was on finding flights to fly to America. 24 hours later, go play singles and challenger. And it was just like the, just the evolution of the sport, it just continues. Yeah, it just goes, nothing changed. The experiences and memories are amazing, they'll last forever. But it doesn't, it doesn't change where you're at. So I guess my message to the listeners and to any players coaches out there, you better enjoy it, you know, whatever level you're doing at it, you know, you better you better enjoy the daily grind, you better enjoy the journey. Because it's not like it's magically going to turn around when you finish your

Dan Smethurst  55:45

life. You know, it's your life, you so you, you're living your life right now. So if you're not trying to enjoy it, I'm not saying it's easy, you know, like for everyone, but like, that's what you should be trying to aim for just enjoying the winning the losing the training, and then just everything that comes with it, isn't it? Ash Barty gets that right. Honestly, like, how good were the two kind of winners? You know, you listen to like Barty and Nadal and the way they speak. I mean, you couldn't ask for two better kind of like perspective on things. Could you the way that Rafa talks about like the 2021 slams, and like, you know, he wants it, and he's not afraid to say it, but at the same time, he knows that that's not going to make him happy in life. And like Ash as well is a perfect example of it doesn't need to be like life, you know, that is like everything is about tennis. Yes, you there's some, there's some unavoidable things that you have to do at high level sport, and you have to go to some dark places, you know, in terms of training, and like everything like that, and like digging out things that, you know, you have to do that. But at the same time, if it ends up not working for you, it doesn't mean you're a piece of rubbish as well. You just you still you know,

Daniel Kiernan  57:07

when did you? When did you learn that?

Dan Smethurst  57:11

I don't think I I definitely not. When I was playing, you know, I tried to I really like I was traveling with Edie Korea a lot just before, and it was definitely my favorite time,

Daniel Kiernan  57:21

he would have been

Dan Smethurst  57:23

so good. You're amazing, you know, like, he was in like, into different, a different kind of like psychology books that I've reading, and then I got into them as well. And then, you know, I was reading them and they were having effects on me for a short period of time, because it was kind of like my conscious thinking was on that. But what had happened, but it wasn't part of my unconscious yet. I wasn't like my natural state wasn't what I was thinking yet, I still had a long way to go of like, training and then I got into a lot of meditation and like, you know, a lot of daily work because I realized that this is not tennis, it's making me feel like this is just me as a person. And I think, definitely after I stopped maybe like two or three years after I stopped playing, I felt a bit calmer within myself. But it takes a long, long time that and it's difficult, difficult to explain that to people because different people also, you know, some people won't need that there'll be more of an optimistic kind of outlook on life. And I'll find it quite easy like the day to day and some people will be on the pessimistic side, the cynical side and they have to do more work, you know, on themselves to be in a better place and you know, that's just what you have to do isn't it? If you're worried not you have to do but it can make life better for sure.

Daniel Kiernan  58:40

And would you have would you have listened I guess if I'm taking taking you back to Being Well, we can take you any age 1618 2022 If someone tried to say right, listen to this Ash Barty video, listen to this Rafael Nadal video, you know, these are the this is the where we need to change the way that you're thinking, would you would you have listened? Or do you think the players have to be in that headspace to be ready?

Dan Smethurst  59:08

I think I think we probably do listen that but there's no such thing as epiphanies, in my opinion, like epiphany that has not acted on it means nothing, it might last for a week. But the reality is that kind of stuff. It needs a lot of training. And that's why I don't think it's fair to put on someone or look at what they're doing. Because it's not part of it. It's not a human to be able to just have your like internal subconscious, you know, feelings is like that. So you have to somehow stumble on it and then work on it. And it takes the time it takes for your like, internal system to change. And like, you know, so if a difficult situation comes up instead of like the threat level going up, you're actually in a calm state because you know, you've worked on it and your your response is more of a cut. It takes time. So it's not fair on someone to just say or listen to what they're saying. And then and then not follow it up afterwards, it's a daily thing for it to make any difference, you know?

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:08

So with that in mind, if you were to give your 18 year old self self, one piece of advice, what would it be?

Dan Smethurst  1:00:18

I think, patience with certain thing, you know, I think I was on the right track a few times, but I was impatient and didn't stick with it, because either it came it like, it had a good effect. So I stopped doing it. And then it went, which is normal, you know, whereas, patient, like, find the thing that made sense to me, and then be patient with it and keep working at it for a longer period of time, I think could have helped me to be honest. Because I feel like I stopped I tried hard man, like, I honestly tried hard, and I probably stumbled onto a lot of things. But I don't think it was patient or patient enough to stick with a few things that probably would have helped me as a player, you know? That's what I'd say.

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:05

And would you view your, your playing career as successful?

Dan Smethurst  1:01:11

I mean, no, because, you know, we all have aspirations that, for me that, you know, not successful because I feel like a give it I honestly, everything I knew I tried, but I just you don't know what you don't know. That's the thing. So I'd say I've got zero regrets about my career. I wish I would have like, you're known or, like these things, there's a 50 things. You know, I feel like, I know now that maybe could have helped, but that's the way it is. So I'd say in terms of results. Everyone? Well, a lot of people want to get to top 100, don't they ultimately? So in terms of results? I'd say no, I was a bit, you know, disappointed. But in terms of how I went about it, I'm more than happy, like more than happy with how I went about it? Do

Daniel Kiernan  1:01:58

you feel as if you maxed out on tennis level?

Dan Smethurst  1:02:04

I think I could play high level tennis. You know, like, when I was in a good, the thing that I'd never learned as a player was like How to Be relaxed in my body, where my mind wasn't so relaxed, because I was quite, you know, I was working hard mentally, but you don't find yourself in great spots. And it was very connected. So like, my tension in my hand was so high that it was impossible to play. So only when I was mentally in such a good place. Could I put my level that where now I don't believe that I think you can really train the hand relaxation and the arm. So even when you're Thai or you're not, no, you can be loose, which can like keep your level more of a kind of like, you know, a more consistent because that's what I struggled with, like consistency. And then I got injured quite a bit, which is no surprise, you know, I'm so tense on the court. But then I struggled to find my level when I came back after injuries because I was so tense, you know, whereas now, I honestly feel like I can hit my forehand as well. You know, after like two or three days is when I did then because it's just that, but again, you don't know what you don't know do like Yeah, and that's the thing. So I got to like 230 or whatever it was in quite a short space of time because I got injured. And they got to 230 I went on this like amazing run, like you said, but then I like pretty much got injured and then but the tension came back and then and then you get injured and you don't play for a bit. So I didn't have the holistic but the whole package together enough because it's about putting together good years, good two years, isn't it? In tennis, not just one week to you know, like, it's that's doesn't do anything for you. So as a tennis player, you've got to figure out a way to go for years or a year. You know, like that's how you got to be looking and I think I never figured that out.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:51

Yeah, building that compound, isn't it compounding those habits daily, daily, daily, daily, weekly, monthly, weekly, monthly. Don't and before you know it, there's a there's a completely different different person different player there. And that goes back into your point around patience. Because, yeah, it's we know it. We know it in our sport. It takes time. But people don't have patience. And people don't have patience with their coach. Yeah, people don't have patience with who they're funding, you know, so so it's very contradictory to what we actually all know. We all know. Yeah, do the right things day in day out, over over a long period of time. That is where you're going to see your big gains. Yeah, the Kate the sport, in lots of ways is set up against that. For

Dan Smethurst  1:04:43

sure, mate is a difficult one. But I mean, all sports seem to be like that, don't they football sacking them. You know, it's just instant gratification. We all want this idea. And we are you know you build towards things but we don't follow it. So it's a bit contradictory. Isn't it? For sure.

Daniel Kiernan  1:05:02

My last couple of little things because you've been a brilliant guests maybe I think there's yeah, there's there's just not that many people that would would would show vulnerability in the things that they've had in their careers and learnings and the fact that then you've gone on and worked with at that time, one at one of the best female players in the world. And now with such humility, you know, doing it now with the with the next generation as well. But a bigger picture, question on the sport of tennis. You touched on ball speed, being being really noticeably different from when you played? Are there any other changes and trends that you see happening? Is there anything then the second part of that question, is that anything then that you think will just always forever be in our sport, that's not going to change?

Dan Smethurst  1:05:56

With ball speed, it's like the athleticism but the the ball speed comes from the athleticism. So in terms of the way people are moving now, it is getting better and better, but they are covering, like, taller guys moving better and better isn't what is like, noticeable, isn't it? You know, before it was like, Yeah, they've got a big surf the 656 x, but you know, just getting moving and you'll be alright.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:21

And Reilly opelka moves well,

Dan Smethurst  1:06:25

moves wise seven. It's unbelievable. And then you got Memphis to have you. It's just ridiculous, isn't it? So like the athleticism, like with every sport, it's going to go over knit. But that's nothing, it shouldn't shock anyone, because all sports move on all the time. So, you know, it's just what is going to be next. And I think like Andy Bradford jurkovich felt like they've obviously brought in like a new level of tennis, haven't they, in terms of what is possible, just with pure, not like really much of a equipment change, but just in terms of a physical like what you can do physically? Like, you know, people have been watching that for years. And you can, you can see that they're covering where they're touching, the ball is getting wider and wider, and like they're comfortable touching it wider and wider. I mean, that's obviously a noticeable change, isn't it?

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:19

Yeah. It's a good answer that you gave on on the physicality. And I think it leads to so many other things. So that the only other thing I'd love your opinion on is it. I've had a lot of data analysts that have come on the podcast as well. They talk a lot about AI certainly O'Shaughnessy has around, what has never changed in the game of tennis is the percentage of points people when at the net. He says it's, you know, 60, 60 plus percent. So why don't people more people want more people do it? What's your take on data analytics? Is it something that you use as a team around Jo? Is it is it something that you as a coach, feel is a part of the sport as I guess we're getting people are getting more physical? Because of the science side of the sport, you know, on the training that goes in? So are people gonna get more analytical and smarter as tennis players? Now that we're starting to bring in more data analytics?

Dan Smethurst  1:08:22

Yeah, I mean, I use it. I think like, as a coach, you use any resource, when you to try and help you play as simple as that. I mean, for me, when it comes to the data, stuff, it's as simple as this. The data is the cherry on the top. Like, it's, it's as simple as that, when if you're not doing the foundations of all like, the application and everything like that. The data, you're honestly, for me, it means zero. So I'd only start really thinking about data. When you feel like the player. He's doing apps, like, you know, really, really in it, and you're looking for those, like, the games in different areas in development, seeing how they're like, matching up as they go up the levels, what is the percentage right behind it, you know, all that stuff. But if someone's not putting in, I wouldn't even go close to it. It's a pet peeve of mine to a certain extent, you know, when people are using it or want to use it when certain things are not even close to being done. I might want to even worried about this for right now. You know, but when it is, then I'm all over it. Yeah, I do. I do like it. Personally, I think it's a really, really good source. And obviously, we're very lucky. The two players that I've worked with have been at the NTC and they've got really good like depth and you can do projects with them. And every night they saw which I know not everyone's lucky enough to have so I feel lucky in terms of like you can use them in that sense, which has been obviously you learn a lot yourself about the game and stuff like that. So yeah, I've been looking to use it but like I said, You If the player is not putting the work in, it stops. No, I don't want to go near it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:10:04

On our match report at, at the SotoTennis Academy, we the first question on the match report is did you do everything in your control today? Before and during the match? And if the answer to that is no, we'll see you next week. Yeah, the answer to that is yes. Then then start to feed back on your tennis game. And that for me came came from the point of I was sick of people telling me that they served badly. Right? Yeah. And they, and they weren't given. Given the best. You know, my forehand was so bad today. No, yeah. And up five minutes before the match, in boy, you know, whatever it may be. Yeah. So I'm all for that. Get the pillars. Get the pillars. Right. And then once you got the pillars, right, then you can start moving into into the into the small detail. Yeah. Last question. Before we got a quick fire Dan. What's the future for Dan Smethurst?

Dan Smethurst  1:11:05

He's a millionaire mate. He's so happy. Yeah, he's

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:11

Does money make you happy Dan? No, doesn't?

Dan Smethurst  1:11:16

You know what, Dan? I'm not 100%? Sure. Because you know what this job is like, I'm really happy to do it. Now. I've not got any kids, and stuff like that. But it's very, very taxing in terms of the amount of travel you have to do, you know, if you want to coach at, like that kind of level? There's no, no two ways about it. You have to be able to be there and travel. So would I be able to do that forever? I don't think so. So I guess other long term other avenues and being able to hopefully work in high performance and find a way to be useful to people, without as much travel would probably be the direction I'd end up liking to be in. But I'm very, very happy doing this. Now. While I don't have the family needs, should we say.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:05

Well good luck with it all. You know, you're obviously doing a doing a great job, man. I hear I had nothing but good things about you, apart from your football team choice. But But I did, I would have, you know, you're a one, I would have put a lot of money on being being a tennis coach, I think there's certain players that you see around around the circuit that you can, you can see that they almost made for it, you know, and I think that was something I noticed with you quite quite early, you know, so well done and everything that you're doing. But all of that chat was really just building up to this big moment of the quick fire round. So you're ready to you're ready to rock.

Dan Smethurst  1:12:48

Yeah, I'm ready to go.

Daniel Kiernan  1:12:50

What does control the controllables mean to you?

Dan Smethurst  1:12:55

It means being able to separate what is controllable and what is not. Like knowing the difference when once you know the difference, then you can start to put energy on the things that you can control. And then you can hopefully get better

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:09

Serve or return

Dan Smethurst  1:13:11

Serve.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:12

Favorite Grand Slam.

Dan Smethurst  1:13:14

Wimbledon

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:15

Forehand or backhand

Dan Smethurst  1:13:16

Forehand

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:18

Medical time out or not. Yeah,

Dan Smethurst  1:13:21

Keep Nige in the job for a couple more years.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:26

This is Dan's dad who is is a physio and we haven't actually spoke that much about your dad who I mean again. You know, any any British tennis player will have fond memories of your dad and I love your dad too bit. Yeah, but actually, what one of the things with your dad? He was quite negative about tennis and British tennis when I spoke to him? And is that something that played with you as well? Do you think?

Dan Smethurst  1:13:52

Well afterwards or during when you were playing?

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:55

Because when I would speak to your dad and we would have great craic and you know, everyone on the tour on the on the future circuit would love him to bits but he was definitely a bit like bloody British tennis. You know, he was he was it that way inclined? A little bit with that.

Dan Smethurst  1:14:12

You know what I don't think it did. Because like, I feel like, like I said before being in it. I've really felt like, people were working so hard to try and help me. Yeah, I felt like it wasn't it didn't work in the right direction in terms of the connection between everything didn't work. But I could feel them on a day to day basis. They were trying to help me. So like, when I when he talked to me like that, I'd be like, well, this person is definitely trying to help me. But like when I take distance from the situation, I realized that the things could have been done a lot better. And maybe you guys could see that with a bit more experience than me at the time that things had to connect not just, you know, wanting to do well. It's like nobody's got to make sense and mesh together well, so no, I don't think at 100 pin impact on me to be honest,

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:02

I've been a big well done Nige. You've been? You've been a soldier for over the years he's done. He's done an amazing job. Let or no let. I'd

Dan Smethurst  1:15:13

I say let unless you unless you tighten every single net as tight as the ones in the US, then then I'm going to say net

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:24

ATP cup or Davis Cup.

Dan Smethurst  1:15:27

Davis Cup.

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:29

A topical question. Who is the male GOAT?

Dan Smethurst  1:15:34

Who is the male GOAT? I'd go Roger.

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:37

I cannot go. Why are we statistically statistically, he's been overtaken your

Dan Smethurst  1:15:44

Your question or my question.

Daniel Kiernan  1:15:48

I need explanations. Yeah.

Dan Smethurst  1:15:51

I don't know. I just look, I mean, just, it's just to your heart's with, isn't it? That's the only Roeser I say it, I just the way he plays and everything like that. He's always, I've always rooted for him. That's why

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:06

He's mine as well, not

Dan Smethurst  1:16:07

staying statistically. But just my goal, he's my goal

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:11

is gonna end up as the third or not in pretty the next couple of years. You know, it's amazing the career he's had. And he's going to be the third highest winning Grand Slam male male player. It's it's completely madness, you know, what a euro will be in anyway. Moving on hard courts or clay courts?

Dan Smethurst  1:16:33

The hard.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:34

And what's one rule change you would have in tennis?

Dan Smethurst  1:16:38

You ask this one a bit. So I did have a think about this. And there's not a there's not much I would change? The only thing I thought of was, would it be interesting. I don't like coaching the idea of coaching my court to be honest, but say like, with the players have a little bit of stats on the court with that they could themselves check out and would that make any difference? Obviously, that would only be done on like the main tour. But you know, would that make any difference? Or would that be interesting and everything like that? That was the only thing because I kind of like it? I like where we're at.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:10

When you were with Jo on that point. What was the rules on coaching on the women's tour?

Dan Smethurst  1:17:16

You could coach in the WTAs.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:19

In the stands. No on top?

Dan Smethurst  1:17:22

No

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:23

do it in the stands now? I think. Yes. So you so you were walking. And so were you walking on the court? Well, we didn't.

Dan Smethurst  1:17:33

Really, we didn't do it, because it was like part of the whole, you know, the philosophy between like, so she was obviously her like main coach, when I came on was Dimitris Avila, who was an amazing coach, and her and then the whole thought process be tight, like the players starting to feel what she's doing a little bit. So you need to enrich them and enrich her cover understanding of what she needed to do in different situations. And then ultimately, you know, the goal was to try and win a Grand Slam, you can't do it in a Grand Slam. So what's the point in relying on it? And then when it comes to a Grand Slam, asking her to be able to figure things out? When she's not been doing it? You know, when we don't call? It doesn't, it didn't really make sense. You know, so we were saying, Oh, you build the confidence. If you win some more matches, I think short term. Yeah, you can win maybe one, but I don't think it makes that much difference. But like you can win one or two matches, maybe. But in the long term, you're probably losing matches, because you're kind of like not open to the situation and what is going on and it closes you off. And you rely on that kind of like information coming that you like, they might even be wrong that might come on and say something is wrong anyway. So you're the one on the court feeling we all know, as a player, you're the one feeling it, so we never did it.

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:51

I just love how developmental that is. For someone who's like top 10 in the world. You know, I think it's brilliant. I think it's such a great answer for for people again to hear, you know, this whole you know, we get so caught up with our young young players and it's like, someone top 10 in the world is still thinking right? In order for me to get to the next step. I actually need to potentially do something that might make me a little bit worse in the short term to make me better in the long term. Brilliant love it means the last answer our last question if you've listened to the podcast, you will know who should our next guests be on control the controllables yay,

Dan Smethurst  1:19:33

Should be Jo. She's She she's really interesting, I think like to talk to her about tennis and very well spoken and she can I think I think you two would have a great one. To be honest.

Daniel Kiernan  1:19:46

I am in touch with her via her agent. Okay. And things have gone a little bit quiet. So a little bit of I mean, it has been a busy time. She's just retired. Yeah, I would imagine She's had a lot on her plate. She's just got married, Australian Open's happened, where I would imagine there's been a few media things. So you now have the baton to push again because it will be amazing to have Jo Konta on. She'd been an absolute star.

Dan Smethurst  1:20:16

Thank you so much for having me. Again, amazing work. These are really really good. I know everyone loves listening. So well done. It's been brilliant.

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:28

Well, here we are, again, at the end of another fantastic Episode and Episode number 151. You might think that I would get bored doing these conversations then? Or are we talking about the same things, but it just never ceases to amaze me how everyone has a different take. And it just it remains fresh. It remains like it's the first podcast that I'm doing. Now. I don't know if you think that Vicki when you're editing because obviously you're editing a lot of different content. Does it stay fresh for you?

Victoria Kiernan  1:21:04

Well I've only been editing since what? Episode 92. So I've got a few more to catch up on. But no, I love each and every guest every single guest we've had on as offered at least one amazing takeaway at least one every time. May

Daniel Kiernan  1:21:19

I apologize at this point for the editing. In the first 90. The quality has significantly gone up. It's been great. Great having you on board. And I think you know you yourself, Vicki, you you played tennis when you were younger? You know, Dan, Dan talks about at age 13. He nearly stopped playing with the pressure. You You were playing as a junior, is that something you can relate to? You know, I would imagine? Certainly lots of my friends stopped at a relatively early age. I would imagine lots of friends in your era did as well. So what is it that we even Dan Smethurst who's gone on achieve what he's done? Get everyone seems to get to this point of? Is it worth me doing? Why am I doing this? Is there too much pressure on me? What do you think that is? For what

Victoria Kiernan  1:22:08

What a question? I mean, if I wish I did have the ultimate answer to that. I think it's loads of different reasons. And I think we see it a lot more with the girls. Certainly when I was playing a lot of the girls who were awesome under 10 and 12 were dropping off. But even the boys actually from Warwickshire we had a really strong tennis County back in the day. And we had two of the strongest in the country who by 15, 16 had stopped playing completely. We talked about it a lot on the podcast about keeping it fun for juniors and Dan mentioned it in the episode, you know, less focus on winning or losing more on the process. More on focus on enjoying the journey. You know, tennis is such a fun sport and somewhere along the lines 13, 14, 15 It does start getting so serious. And combine that with teenagers and pressures. And I think even more so now with all the kids on social media, everything is so public. So I think that also adds even more pressure to when we were playing. But I loved what you said actually about the car journey about how how as parents, how do you make the car journey fun for your child or a child that you coach after a really difficult match? Whether that's yeah, behavior, performance, whatever it is, how do we get to the point with our genius that they can go and play match. And whether they win, whether they lose whether they have a nightmare, or whether they play a blind, they have that consistent journey home, regardless of the outcome. It's

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:38

a one actually that us as us as tennis parents, I think are being challenged on now. Because I'd love to sit here on my high horse, as Director of SotoTennis academy and say, This is what you should do. And this is how you do it. And I definitely used to find it quite easy as a coach if I'm honest, I think because yes, there's emotion attached. But there is more objectiveness when you're a coach, and you can see the bigger picture and you you're probably not judging the player as much on how they behave or how they are, you know, and I think you can take some things with a pinch of salt and then set that environment the right way. But I've definitely been challenged with with our boy, you know, and I think you just know his nuances, you know that he should have been in bed the night before. And when he was playing on the Xbox or you know that he was being a little bit of a nightmare at home the day before you be not other a couple of hours before you go to the tournament. And and it's really hard because when you feel those strong emotions and there's something that you want to say I think as a parent, you just want to offload that. Now by offloading that But it probably makes us as parents feel better. However, to, to an eight year old, nine year old, 10 year old 14 year old, it just isn't gonna make them feel better. And

Victoria Kiernan  1:25:14

You know, I did this on the weekend, our I felt awful our eight year old is playing her second ever little minis tournament. She has just started loving tennis in the last few months. And she was bouncing around the court and I walked up just as she was finishing her first little match just points to 10. And I'm loving it came off. Just super happy. Really enjoyed it. No mention of the score. She went on for a second one. And I watched it all the way through. And she came off that one. Oh, I lost that one. I don't know why. Because I lost. I went I beat him the last time I played. And I watched it the whole way through. And I my instant reply was, oh, you know why you lost that because you weren't following through on the forehand. Remember when Ali was talking to you about, her coach, talking to you about following through and I went straight to like what I saw and how she could have played better and a little face was just crushed. And the minute it came out my mouth. I was like, What have I just done? Instead of going oh, but you know, you you're scoring really well today, you look like you're enjoying it so much or saying anything, anything other than what I said, I just felt good. I think sometimes it's worse if you know the sport, probably would have been better in that moment had I not been focusing on Yeah, what how she was playing, but just let her enjoy the whole day. And it's keeping that fun going. Because you we know it. But even by the time she's 10, she's not gonna be bouncing around that cord, super happy to be playing, regardless of the score, even in a couple of years if she's still playing.

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:44

But you you will. And we've had Michael Joyce, one of our grid, guests, he talked about this, he met Final of junior Wimbledon. But he doesn't remember the matches, he doesn't that's not his memory. That's not his experience, his experiences is the way he felt, being in England, with all of his buddies from America, playing cards every night having a great time. And we have to remember, and it's so hard. And myself and Vicki, we need to remind this remind ourselves of this with our children as well. How you make someone feels stays with them for a long, long time. And, and at the end of a bad match that any of your players have, they already feel bad, they already are going through a whole world of emotions. So once they get into the car, and it's a little tin box that they can't get out of, do not make them feel even worse, you know, bite your tongue, adults really hard to do. But I think a brilliant bit of advice that can be taken, you know, fraught from that is make sure that it's a positive experience, win, lose or draw, you know, make sure that the car ride home is is as good as it would be if the match has been won. And I said this on court today, winning or playing well is never that far away. But also losing and playing badly, is never that far away. And it's trying not to catastrophize both of those feelings. You know, it's actually okay, you're winning, you're doing great right now, however, be humble. Because you never know when you're going to get bitten on the backside and your levels going to drop, or someone's going to take over, you're losing no problem. Keep fighting, because you never know when you're going to turn that around. And I think I think it's a topic. That is a fantastic topic, I think we all need to hear it. It's certainly not being delivered in a way of looking at us, we know what we're doing how we're talking about, because I completely empathize with every tennis parent out there. And but just it's, it's really hard, really hard. But just bite your tongue, put the music on, have a little sing song, if you normally stop off and get some nice food from the petrol station, or whichever, whatever you do on the way back from tournaments, do it regardless. And let's make sure that those positive experiences are there. And they're not conditioned to whether a player wins or loses a match.

Victoria Kiernan  1:29:21

And to jump ahead to the other end of the conversation you had talking about Dan's coaching. I love what he said actually again, and he said it like Well, yeah, coaching is just coaching. It doesn't matter who you're working with, you're there to help them get better. But I don't really think that is always the norm. We've certainly crossed paths with coaches who do not want to be working with certain age groups or don't want to be working with certain levels. I thought that was a really refreshing thing to hear Him say.

Daniel Kiernan  1:29:48

I thought it was lovely. And, and on a personal note, I've known Dan for many years and I'm telling you right now, he has developed into a fantastic young man, you know, and I think he's worked hard on that. I think that that way of looking at it that philosophy, I think we all say that that's the case or we like to, I think the reality is our egos do get bruised. I think the reality is we all do feel like we belong in this sport a little bit more, if we're working with players at a certain level, or we've got experiences of taking players to certain levels. And I have, I have no doubt that the majority of coaches can relate to that, even though we don't like we don't like to say it. We had Alice to filmer, who came on and spoke short his vulnerability of when he was working with Emma Raducanu. And also Anton Matusow vich, the bright British male player. And when he stopped working with them both, he felt he was a bit worthless, he felt he wasn't good enough, he didn't quite know where he fitted. And I think we've all experienced that I have it. You know, I've been fortunate enough to work with lots of fantastic players. And right now, I'm just an academy director, you know, and that doesn't quite have the same. Yeah, massage of the ego on a daily basis as you would if your player has won x tournament and y tournament. So I can completely relate to why people wouldn't think that. But it was massively refreshing for Dan to say that, and and listening to Danny's got his head screwed on. He's going to go on and have a brilliant career at whatever level he works with, because he is going to be a high performing coach with whoever comes in his way. And well done to you, Dan, and thank you so much for coming onto the show.

Victoria Kiernan  1:31:42

And before we go, thank you so much to those of you who voted for us in the Sports Podcast Awards. If you haven't seen we've been nominated for Best Tennis Podcast, which is really exciting. There's a leaderboard up so we're trying not to get too competitive. But I think Danny checking it every day or I

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:01

Haven't checked since this morning.

Victoria Kiernan  1:32:05

But yeah, if you have a spare couple of minutes, we'd be so grateful if you could take time out just to register and vote for Control the Controllables yeah, we're just really excited to be nominated. But if we could get anywhere near winning would be even, we'd be even more excited.

Daniel Kiernan  1:32:21

We will put the link in the show notes. Vicki was very diplomatic there. I'm telling you a vote or else we need you badly. We are no it's it is an honor. There's lots of amazing tennis podcasts out there. Of course and I've said this a couple of times on social media and I mean it you know for me this vote goes to those that you don't hear from you know, we've got a fantastic group of people that are working behind the scenes obviously Vicki you hear her voice now but the work she puts in to edit these podcasts are amazing team at Sato tennis that are that are bringing together show notes that are that are getting the assets out there on social media that are researching our guests, but those behind the scenes they deserve it. If we can push them forward to getting the recognition that they deserve, then I'll be very happy and the beers that I buy them on a Friday night to say thank you will mean all the more to them to be able to get that recognition. Next week we have episode 152 with the old coach now the ex coach of Iga Swiatek Piotr, and I will give you his surname next week because SS and Zeds and cares and W's and eyes and it's not easy to know the pronunciation, but we've got bad form with pronunciations. I've got very bad form or pronunciation so you can judge me next week when I have a little bit of time to practice. PR is a brilliant guest. He is recently just started working with Shelby Rogers and brings a wealth of experience as a Grand Slam winning coach. So I'm excited to bring that to you. And we're excited to be bringing lots of great guests to you over the next few weeks and months. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables