Jonathan Overend - The Voice of Tennis is Back

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Daniel Kiernan  00:09

Welcome to Episode 216 of Control the Controllables. And I'm delighted to welcome back, Mr. Jonathan Overend. It's almost four years since I spoke to Jonathan. On the podcast, he was one of my big guests and stars that I wanted to get on when and when we first started Control the Controllables. I was extremely nervous when I was speaking to him. And here we are almost four years later. And Jonathan has his tale to tell, you know, many things have happened in his life since then, but he is coming back to our screens, we're going to have that amazing voice joining us, as today's the day that Sky Sports is launching their new channel, Sky Sports Tennis, and that's on February 11. So if you are listening today, then you will be able to watch 24 hours tennis seven days a week on Sky Sports. Now some of you are going great. I've got Sky Sports. And some of you are saying, well, I can't afford Sky Sports. Well, there's pros and there's cons to everything in this life. And I guess you're gonna have to listen and make your own mind up. But certainly from a selfish point of view, having the opportunity and the pleasure and the honor to speak to Jonathan Overend I didn't want to pass this up. So I'm now going to pass you over to the voice of tennis, Mr. Jonathan Overend. So Jonathan Overend a big welcome to Control the Controllables. How are you doing?

Jonathan Overend  01:46

How are you? The award winning Control the Controllables Congratulations, my friend.

Daniel Kiernan  01:50

Thank you. And I'm start I'm starting to think Jonathan that maybe the marketing team deserve all these awards. You know, maybe were the ones that are pushing so hard for votes that they actually need the award in their in their office. But no, thank you for the for the words on that. And it's a thank you to anyone that voted for us as well.

Jonathan Overend  02:10

Longevity, that's what it is. And that's that that comes from passion, doesn't it? You know, longevity in anything comes from a desire to just keep doing what you do. And I think that's one of the great things about tennis, isn't it? Isn't there's a number of you who've been doing podcasts for many, many years now. And I always think whenever I start a new project, I always think to myself, Well, how long? How long is this going to last for? And of course, you get a couple of months into anything, I think start thinking about the next project. You know, that's sort of itchy feet syndrome, if you like, and I suppose that's the producer in me rather than the broadcaster me. But that's, that's why I have such enormous admiration for for the likes of you and David and Katherine and everyone else who puts out their their podcasts, you know, on such a regular basis. It's fantastic for the sport.

Daniel Kiernan  02:53

I think on that as well, it's, people always say to me, Well, who are you going to get on next. But if you see this spreadsheet I have, it's just like boom boom, because the world of tennis is, it's tight knit. But it's also huge when you start to kind of unlock all of the different lenses and the different parts of the industry. And then a new coach appears and then someone else does this and then someone as kind as yourself comes on for a second time, as well.

Jonathan Overend  03:23

We're phoning you up rather than the other way around.

Daniel Kiernan  03:26

We can start delving into new topics. But to start with I can't have you on obviously the last time I saw you in person Jonathan was at Wimbledon, the All England Club, but the British tennis journalist Christmas luncheon. And on that table that day, it was well it was fantastic see and many people but I actually sat next to Mike Dickson on that day and I had I had such a such a fun two hours with him, you know, just sharing stories and obviously the devastating news that came out of Melbourne that just shocked shocked the tennis world but certainly the broadcasting world and specifically within British tennis and heartbreaking at 59 years old and I just want to start with just maybe a few words on Mike and what he meant to the community.

Jonathan Overend  04:16

Well thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few words right at the start to him because Mike, as well as being a colleague over many years was was also friends and when you're has you know when you're on the tour, good company counts for a lot. And Dicko was certainly that he was exceptional company and I had an amazing night with him. I remember in New York, we went out for dinner and talked about this that never think that that was the thing about Mike he had an interest in so many different areas of life. So you'd obviously talk about tennis, he talked about the day's tennis, he talks about what's coming up tomorrow, and then you'd quickly move on to something else. And he liked sort of urban architecture and urban parks and he liked the 80s music and he liked sort of weird sort of Jazz Funk from the 80. So we had a strange sort of niche crossover there. We talk about that. And he was into politics. And he obviously lived just around the corner of the All England Club. So everything to do with with Wimbledon was very close to his heart, as well. He was an exceptional human being. And I think that that has really come across hasn't it since his tragic passing how much respect everybody who came across him had not just in the tennis community. And there were two things for me, which really made him stand out as being so valuable to the sport of tennis. He was a journalist, first and foremost, he wasn't a tennis fan. Sure, he was sure he was a tennis fan, but not first and foremost. first foremost, he was a journalist. And what does that mean in practice? That means number one, you look at things critically, you've got a critical eye. So you don't just turn up to a match and say, Oh, what'd you do, then? What a great contest. He'd look at things critically. And so what could be better here? What what perhaps has irritated me? What what's what? How could things be improved? That that's what happens when you look at things with a critical eye. And I think he got a lot of respect for that. Because it just meant that he wasn't a natural cheerleader. In a sense, you know, some of the things will come on to I'm sure in this conversation, how can the sport evolved? How can the sport move forward, Dicko was always thinking about that sort of thing. But he also studied things in such great depth and ask anyone in British tennis if there was a guy around the NTC, or around the ITF tour, or around training camps, more than Dicko, then no one's met that person yet. You know, he was always there. He was always with his finger on the pulse. And I think again, people had whatever he would write about people, people always knew it would be fair. And I think that's, that's all you can ask from a journalist and he'll be so missed. So missed by family, friends, colleagues, and I know by the sport of tennis because he was such a valuable member of the tennis family.

Daniel Kiernan  06:56

Beautiful words, Jonathan and, and we're going to jump into that subject around broadcasting platforms and like you talk about tennis, tennis is up against so many things yet to get their eyeballs onto tennis, you know, whether it's other sports, whether it's Netflix, whether it's Tik Tok whether it's, you know, there's so many. There's so many other areas now in the world. And certainly, Mike, I remember being a junior player, and Mike was there writing about our triumph in 1994. And then he was he was there when we were playing football with Tim Henman, on the beach in Miami Beach in 1997. And then, and then you fast forward to 2024. And he was still delivering the news, like you say, in a critical way, with the same passion and that longevity, and that platform that he provided for British tennis, you know, which through that period of time, was going under at many times, you know, there was there was in October, people start even forgetting about and apart from the two weeks at Wimbledon, and it needed people like Mike to keep it alive. It needs people like we're going to jump into the Sky deal, you know, the the broadcasting deals that are out there to keep the sport alive and to get it in front of people. But But before we move into that, Jonathan, we did speak back in 2020, and it's a long time ago, you were one of my first guests. It certainly has and I want you to give me a little overview, but I certainly I when I was listening yesterday, it came through loud and clear. Your passion for tennis was was great. You at the time had just left the BBC potentially being forced out of the BBC moving, then you were about to do a little bit of the ITV coverage at the French Open, I learned that I was really pretty crap as a podcaster. So hopefully, you can see some development in me today, as well over the last over the last four years. But yeah, what have you been up to give us a quick speed update of Jonathan Overend over the last three or four years?

Jonathan Overend  09:12

Well, that's really interesting what you say about listening, listening back to the interview from four years ago and critically reviewing your own performance. But that links back to what we were saying about Dicko isn't it critical thinking and it's how it's how we improve, you know, certainly in broadcasting, you can only really improve if you listen back to what you what you've done and learn from it and try to get better. It's been a very, very odd few years, as he say. I think when when I stopped being the BBC is Tennis Correspondent in 2013. And my last match was when Andy won Wimbledon for the first time. A lot of people just sort of assumed that I'd sort of fallen out of love with the sport and had gone off to do football or what or something like that, you know, nothing could really be further from the truth. It was just a situation where I couldn't travel anymore. I just simply couldn't do the job anymore. I remember that. I don't know if I mentioned this last time they said, Well, you know, Could you could you maybe do a few more events from back home? Could you maybe do two of the four grand slams? I said, No, that's not that's not the job, you know, you've got to throw yourself into it. So the time was right to hand over the the baton, if you like, but as you say, tennis has never, never left me and as a freelance now, I mean, you had Colin Fleming on recently. And Colin works alongside me at ATP media. So we do a lot of the world feed commentary, which goes out to all the international rights holding broadcasters. So that that gets done sort of a lot of the weeks of the year, on the five hundreds and the 250 events. And now this amazing opportunity to join Sky Sports for their Sky Sports Tennis, the new channel, which starts on the 11th of February, round the clock coverage from from all the ATP and WTA events and the US Open as well. So just incredibly excited about jumping into that working with some great people and hopefully, hopefully bringing some British tennis stories, success stories once again.  Now before we move to 2020, for the podcast in the picked up, you couldn't do it anymore, 2013 You just couldn't do it anymore you said, why not? Well, how long have you got? I think, do I want to talk about this, then I want to talk about this? Do you know what I do want to talk about this because I think this gets to the heart of what a lot of us have in our family lives. And in our working lives, we have this sort of unspoken idea that if something's happening in our personal life, we can't let it affect our work life. And that, if any decision we're gonna make in professional life, it has to be completely separate. Right? Okay, I'm not going to let anything affect my job. It's like, well, who who decided who decided that? Um, I think it's really harmful in a way. And I look at athletes especially. And you know, what I was going through at the time. I can't get into the ins and outs of it because it affected my family was a family situation, that meant I couldn't do my job anymore. And I look at athletes now. And I think so many of them must be in similar situations, they must be going through various mental health turmoil, things might be happening in the family lives, which might be the exactly the sort of thing that happened in my family life. That meant I couldn't do my job anymore. Now that happens to a guy or girl at the top of the sport of tennis, for example, what happens? Well, we as fans just expect it to carry on. And if someone takes nine months off, we kind of question it and say, Well, where are they? Well, you know, what's the injury? And I think we have to sort of just be a lot more empathetic now, in 2024, about people's need to step away from whatever it might be, we have to look after ourselves, because for too long, society has sort of entertained this idea that right, that's, that's that day's work done on to the next day, or that's that tournament done on to the next tournament. It's like when do we ever get a chance to sort of stop and think and breathe and prioritize? I suppose that's what I had to do. I had to sort of prioritize in my personal life. And I like it when people are open about that and talk about it. Because I think it's really, really important. I think, Amanda Anisimova, I think, did exactly that last year, and actually was really open about the need

Daniel Kiernan  13:38

Naomi Osaka also.

Jonathan Overend  13:41

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I just think we need to sort of evolve society, if you like to a position where people aren't uncomfortable to say, Do you know what I can't, I can't do this at the moment. Not saying I'll never be able to do it again. Just can't do it at the moment. And I think broadcasting a bit like sport is one of those occupations that is really prevalent for people getting into difficulties just because of the nature of the cycle. If you like the news cycle, 24 hour, coverage, day to day in one day done, gone on to the next day. Let's do it. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's relentless, relentless. Within that you might be sitting behind your microphone for five hours, you might have a couple of hours in meetings, you might have a debrief, you might have a two hour journey home at the end of the day, you might have a six hour sleep, and then you're back in the next day. And unless you have those opportunities to stop and take, take a deep breath sometimes. And I don't know if we'll get on to the you know, the politics in tennis at the moment. But that's that's we will we will because that's where some of the big decisions in tennis we can't we just can't make them while we're still playing tennis 11 months a year, where is the time and space to Step away, get the broader perspective that we need to take the big decisions. And that's what I had to do 10 years ago and sort of had to for 5, 6, 7 years after that, things are now in a much better place. And, you know, I'm delighted to still have the opportunity to do what I love to do. And as I say, I really hope that more people who talk about the challenges they face in professional environments get hurt, because we've got it, we've got to change that, that perspective, work is not the most important thing. Personal life, family life is and our own individual health is. So that's what I'd say.

Daniel Kiernan  15:45

Thanks John. And I think that's powerful. You sharing that? It really is. And I guess the, the thought process I was having, as you were speaking there is what what do the critics say to tennis players? And what they say is, were you getting paid all of this money, you're a role model, you know, you should just deal with it. But what you're seeing and what you're bringing alive is, is the human nature of it, you know, nobody, nobody is a robot. And it's something that absolutely, we've got to get our heads around. The flip point of that Jonathan, in the tennis world, is there's always someone else ready to take the position? And I would imagine it's quite similar in the journalist world as well. Yeah, that it's that it's such a competitive space. And then the second point is this goes in, we just spoke about this actually, on our Australian Open Review episode last week, these players that are complaining of burnout, because burnout comes in many forms, right? But ultimately, burnout is it is often a mental health issue. You know, it's there, it's there, whether it's emotional, whether it's from a more mental standpoint, whether it's linked to family, whether it's linked to relationships, it's linked to many things, burnout gets you to the point of being so overwhelmed, you can't do it anymore. And tennis players are complaining of burnout, but the season ends and that one month period that we don't have a tournament. Half of them go off the bloody Middle East and play exhibition matches. Yeah, the month of December.

Jonathan Overend  17:27

And it's so competitive. And it's it's harder. And as you say, someone's ready to take your place in the in the rankings that you want to work harder. So you may be built extra time into your Offseason training block. It's it's relentless. It's absolutely relentless. And I think a couple of things you've said there that I really want to just come back on, that that perspective of looking at a tennis player now has completely changed for me completely. Alright, just because I know from experience that us as viewers, as fans are spectators, we have no idea. No idea what is going on in these people's world. To us. They're just a figure of entertainment. You know, we sit there in the tennis stadium, and we go right, you you over there, get the ball, get your racket play entertain us, right, and just entertain us put on the show. And we've got no idea. And the thing about someone being ready to take your place. Yeah, I mean, the tennis ranking system doesn't help with that does it? Because let's just say there's a tennis player out there who wants to do what I did, which is step away from their job, for the sake of their own health and their family's health. Can you do that? Realistically, the way that the ranking is is set up? And when I mentioned Anisimova, I mean, obviously, if you go and have a child it did, it's completely different because of the WTA's

Daniel Kiernan  18:56

Dan Evans just had a goal, yeah, maybe not only his own, not only his own accord, but he what he did, not many people gave him the credit actually had, he had an agreement for what he's done. And he had the drug ban, but also people forget a couple of years before that he had an injury that took them out for a year as well. So two times he pretty much lost his ranking, and fully climbed back up to actually better his ranking with 11 months. And

Jonathan Overend  19:23

I you know, I was probably one of those people that when he got his ban said, That's it. He's done. You know, what an idiot, you know, he's just become a top 50 player for the first time. And he's, he's been found guilty of this. He's done. I was probably one of those people. And that is where you learn, don't you you learn you learn a lot about the human spirit and the ability of people to turn their lives around and I am so full of admiration for what Dan has managed to do. Just an incredible effort. And you know, that he's still able, I mean, none of that matters. You play with our careers in the Arthur Ashe Stadium was one of the best matches that I've seen. It was a special special day. And to commentate on that I'm I'm there on the mic just looking at it talking about both of these guys thinking actually, there's not much between them, there really isn't, is not much between them on this day and sure our career wins the match. But but you know, great, great effort. And here's an example for you down, you know, we talked about, or I talked about, you know, my situation I'm not, I'm being a bit cryptic and not giving too much away. But here's a practical example of what I was going through US Open final of 2012 Andy Murray's playing Novak Djokovic, remember that? Murray led two sets to Djokovic wins sets three and sets four now I'm commentating with Alistair Akin on the radio. And I do sets one, three and five. So set four, I'm walking around, when I'm not on the mic, I'm sort of distant because I know the Djokovic come back is on and though realistically, Djokovic which is quite possibly the favorite to go on and win that match, you know, the ascendancy was in, in that position, my phone starts going, and it's home. And it's it's my kids at home, crying down the phone. Now, that's not a situation any parent wants to be in, you know, even if you're just around the corner. But imagine that happening your other side of the world, you're in the fourth set of a Grand Slam final. And you're about to go on for the deciding set of a match, which ultimately crowns a Grand Slam champion for Great Britain, which was unbelievable from Andy, but 45 minutes before he did that. I'm in tears at the back of the Arthur Ashe stadium court on the phone with my children. And people might go on social media and say, your shit commentator or, you know, what are you doing anywhere near the radio? And it's like, fine, it's fine. But let's all just be a little nicer to each other, I think. And I've learned that over the years, there have been times where I've probably when I was writing off, Dan Evans, probably assaulted other players, you know what I mean? It's like, be a bit nicer and a bit more empathetic. And I've definitely learned that from my own personal experience. And that that's where that that was probably the day that I knew I had to sort of step away. And it took a while. And thankfully, they persuaded me to Wimbledon the following year, otherwise, I wouldn't have gotten but you know, Jackson, just an example of stuff that that's

Daniel Kiernan  22:36

It's a great example. It's a great example, because it does, it's it's happening all the time. It's actually something that a few years ago, we brought a protocol in the soccer tennis academy, within the team is rather than diving in to to a player or diving into another staff member, and almost kind of not ridiculing, but saying what you do what you're why you're not doing that I'll get off your phone or whatever it might be, if that you can tell when people are distracted. Was was to ask the question, how are you I can tell that you don't quite seem yourself, you know, and give people give people that first, right of being able to be understood, you know, before we jump in. And it's not always easy, because we all live a hectic life. And we all kind of stressed right at different times. And it's very easy to jump in. But just by us all asking that question and not not making the assumption that someone is being like that to be an arse, that but actually giving them that empathy that actually if you if you are like that there's obviously something going going wrong. And I think the world would be a better place. And we obviously live in a world where there's a lot of worse things going on now as well. But, you know, but the world will be a better place if we all were just a little bit kinder. So thanks so much for sharing that as well. Jonathan.

Jonathan Overend  24:08

And the other thing is is done as well as it's really made me think about some of the words we use in commentary as well, because sports commentary I think, at times is so cliched, so cliched, just in terms of some of the some of the what we would consider to be commentary lines. Whereas, I mean, I don't know if this is me being a bit earnest it probably example give me an example. Okay, so I would never use the expression back against the wall. All right, I wouldn't I would never use that expression because that that is an expression that comes from a firing squad. Right? That's, that's what it is. If your back is against the wall, you're facing a firing squad, you're about to be executed. As I say, it's probably me being way too earnest. But to me that there's a lot of examples like that that have just got to come into sort of sports. The sports vernicular that people use that is just like, No, it's like someone bullying somebody bullying someone around a court. I don't like that myself. It's like, I don't want to be a bully. I don't want anyone to be a bully. Well, that's just me. It's just something to think about.

Daniel Kiernan  25:17

Let me know what you think about this. So me 43 years old, have always had challenges with my weight. And and that's a mental health thing, you know, something I remember, age 13 or 14 stepping on the skills is looking back at 1314 I was fit as a fiddle, but I was always quite a big guy, and everyone laughing at me on the scales, and I was always heavier. So it was something I carried. And then I went to India, and I could laugh about it, but it's it affected me and has affected me for many years. And I came through the qualifying of a Futures event, singles, and all three set matches. Then i i won the singles, pretty much all three set matches, tie breaks, won the doubles, and the final was televised on national TV in India. So as as the match finishes, this kind of jubilation for me if it's my first ever singles futures event are beat Prakash Amritraj in the semi final who was the big Indian hope at the time, Vijay Amritraj is there, it's, it's about 46 degrees every day, I'm unbelievably proud of myself, win, eight singles, matches four doubles matches. And I come off the court and the commentator says to me, live on Indian TV, says Mr. Kiernan, we can't help notice that you're carrying a little bit of excess weight on the court. And we've been comparing you to some of the other overweight sports of the last few years. And we were talking about Ian both of David Booth, all of these cricket players. So that happens. So I've just won this event, hundreds or 1000s of miles away from home, I then walk into a little mini press conference. And all of the questions are around the same thing. And I pick up the newspaper the next day. And there's about five articles. And I remember them clearly that one headline was Kiernan shows he has the stomach for the battle. The first lines, the first line of the next one was Kiernan shows you don't need to have a Baywatch six pack to be a tennis player. I mean, I got completely destroyed, they completely destroyed. Now that's a bit of an over the top example. But just those one or two words that can be used in our in life, and on Coventry, or people in interview can have quite a profound effect on somebody, somebody for a long, long period. And I don't think sometimes we appreciate that the power we have, on both ways the power, we have to help someone but also the power, we have to destroy someone, often with just one or two words.

Jonathan Overend  28:14

And I think that that sort of long term impact, the fact that that's still on your mind, and you're still able to recount the story. So clearly, there is something for fun, not not a bad headline, by the way, what a fair, fair play for that for that one. But doesn't that indicate how, at the time we'd probably chuckle along, wouldn't we? We'd probably go, Huh, yeah. All right, whatever. You'd sort of find a way of dealing with it at the time, but the fact it still lingers, yeah, it should tell us everything. And I think you're right, language is important. Attitude is important, I think of how the broadcasting world has changed in my, well, 30 years now, in the profession. I mean, it's extraordinary. And to think that some people still have a problem with us not being allowed to say certain things. Now we can't we can't say that because it's wrong. Or we get we can't the reason we can't say that is because it's offensive. Or the reason we can't say that is because it would make someone you know, still recount that story because they're clearly still hurting from it eight years from now. You know what I mean? It's like so it's just it comes back to that idea of just stepping back, giving ourselves all time to think, breathe, analyze, reassess. And I've done this so much over the last 10 years, this sort of like self-interest or introspection, if you like to sort of reassess my own sort of opinions, values, and you change, if you if you look at yourself and don't change, you're basically saying there's nothing wrong here. And how do you improve if you don't see anything wrong, then Oh, that sounded vaguely philosophy,

Daniel Kiernan  29:50

It does it and Jonathan, I think it's a nice it's a nice place for us to move into, into the heart of of the of the way that I want to, I want Run this because we've talked about words, words that have been used, we've reflected a little bit on the last on the last four years. And I thank you so much for your honesty on that. And I can tell you right now, you've impacted a lot of people listening, which is, which is exactly why why we bring these episodes to people. But I'm gonna give you a call that you made back in 2020. And I've got a few. And, and, and we're then going to we're then going to talk around where that subject might take us. And that's, that's going to be how the show it's going to be a show. That's how the show's gonna work. And we I also want you, I want you to give us some information as well here, Jonathan, because there's, I guess there's there's exclusivity. I don't like exclusivity, I'm not a big fan of it. Again, it's probably Northeastern values. I'm more for inclusivity and the way that things are, you know, certainly what I don't like about the potential new to I don't like this exclusivity in our sport. I think already. Tennis is too exclusive. We don't open it up to enough people to have an opportunity. We certainly in in a country like Spain, where I live, there's more opportunities to play in a country like like Great Britain. But you also said to me, you said all sports should be on terrestrial television. So that's what you say whole, the whole of sport Wow. So and the point that you were making and it's the right point and I'm sure you still agree to this point, is we should be provide that it should be provided and that's where inspiration comes you know as a junior as a as a youngster, we all remember waking up to FA Cup Final Days. I remember the day Princess Diana died bless her soul. I was devastated because Newcastle Liverpool was cancelled that day, it was the ITV match, that was that was coming out on that on that day. And that used to, you know, the excitement used to build and, and that is what gets into us from such a young age. And maybe times have changed. So now you are terrestrial TV was what you were pushing for. The cynicism is the exclusivity of Sky TV package, we can't afford the 30 pounds or 40 pounds a month. Obviously, that we've heard what's been happening in the last few weeks, we don't even get the Multi-courts we don't even get this. And I don't think a lot of people quite understand what it is yet. So tell us, it's my lead into giving us tell us all there is to know about Sky Sports tennis, the new channel, the positives, and also some of the things that you guys have got to look out for and improvements that you're going to have to look to make.

Jonathan Overend  32:47

Yes, so I mean, the reality is, there will be a round the clock Tennis Channel, starting as you say, on the 11th of February Sky Sports tennis. For the tennis enthusiasts. I mean, Dreamland, you need to turn it on, and it'll be there for channel 408 to start start with and then it'll be channel 407 Pretty much permanently that's, that's where you're where you need to go. But obviously available through NOW TV, the Sky Sports app, the fancy TVs, you can get glass stream, cue, all that sort of stuff, it's available. And the thing for me is it's, it's a channel. So if you're if you're hopping from Premier League, to golf, to cricket, whatever it might be one press of the remote control and now as the tennis so the tennis community can go and find it. And I'd like to think those of us in the tennis community will find their tennis wherever it is sure we might not particularly be happy about paying for it, but such as such as the commercial world we live in. But more than that, the sports fans who are who have their Sky for their Formula One or for their darts or for the Premier League are now able to access the tennis as well. So it's my belief that that is actually an overlooked audience. We kind of have these conversations by saying oh, there's the tennis audience. And then there's the casual, Wimbledon audience if you like as if to say people only watch tennis once a year, which in a lot of cases is true, but then there's people like my mum, my mum and dad who loved Amazon Prime loved watching it on Prime and now he's gonna love watching it on Sky but doesn't sit there watching every single match but wants to be able to flick through the channels might watch a bit of my watch a bit of the snooker my watch a bit of the darts on our watch a bit of the tennis today. So I think there's a great opportunity now to hook in a lot of people who enjoy tennis who know about the stars of tennis, but who maybe haven't religiously gone looking for it in the past. Now there's that opportunity to hook them in and make them tennis fans of the future, which I think is really exciting. Obviously, we want to be there for the tennis community as well. That's why there's going to be all sorts of things on offer. You know, Gigi Salmon's going to be out in Doha first week presenting, people who've been maybe watching the occasional match on Sky already this season are gonna see a big step up in the presentation of what is going to be on offer. And as you say, the multi-court coverage, certain elements on demand as well, bonus streams through NOW TV, I mean, I'm sort of baffling myself a corporate speak already. And I don't necessarily mean it as a fan of terrestrial TV. You're absolutely right. But a sport like tennis is an 11 month, a year sport. So that just can't that just can't go. You can't just say, oh, let's put all that on BBC Two, all year round. It's just not going to happen. And I think this is a this is a great opportunity for tennis, in my mind, to reach new audiences.

Daniel Kiernan  36:00

Great, and I hadn't realized that either. So I think I think for me to hear, even personally, on how it's going to be set up. So that's brought a couple of questions, maybe selfish questions, but I'm sure I'm sure that you're sitting in the car right now maybe thinking the same thing. There's not matches on 24 hours a day, globally? I know it's not far off. So how will that other time be used? Will that be that the replays of matches? I'm certainly hoping that we get some US Open, mixed doubles final replays. Text me when those ones come on, I need to relive that. But is there or is there going to be a tennis shows I like to buy into characters, right. And stories? I think I think we're all the same, you know, we buy into the stories of people. And that's what I love doing this podcast. And I love podcasts because I think people can get the context of their story and their personality across. Is that is that going to be part of the coverage? What can we expect to see on that channel? When I guess the dead time of when matches aren't happening?

Jonathan Overend  37:10

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm just just thinking about next week, just as an example, you've got Dallas on, and you've got Doha on, and there'll be a European tournament as well, won't you? So actually, it's, it's not going to be far away from 24 hours a day tennis which, which is really going to be something.

Daniel Kiernan  37:29

You don't need a podcast, you don't need a podcast to fill in for some of the some of the little gaps?

Jonathan Overend  37:34

Visualize it, Yeah, well, I'll put you in put you in touch with the people at the top table now. But I think I think the point you make about the personalities is is a really good one. And it's something I know myself and Gigi are very, very big on. We're storytellers. At the end of the day, we're journalists, number one we've taught started this conversation by talking about one of the great tennis journalists in Mike Dickson, RIP. And if you're a journalist, you're a storyteller. And that's what we want to do. We want to tell stories. And sport is just one of the great vehicles for storytelling because you have a start a beginning and an end. And you have characters, you have personalities, you have ups and downs, swells of emotion. And that's why I love sport, you know, what it does to your soul, how it makes you feel. And that's one of the things that in this sort of data driven era of sports coverage, I feel still remains so important make people feel when they're watching their sport, you know, bring that emotion out, tell people things they don't know about the human side of these individuals. I think that's really, really important. And absolutely that will be at the heart of a lot of the Sky coverage.

Daniel Kiernan  38:49

There's a podcast name in there somewhere, Sport and Feels and all those things. My next one, "the Davis Cup has to live after live, the history of the competition speaks for itself. And the old format gives kids the chance to get in and watch tennis which they might never have." Now this was said almost four years ago and I guess the bit I would love to get your as we evolve and you know, as you rightly say, above you know, we're not wanting to stop the movement of time Time moves, things move, things change. And what we've seen over the last two years as we've seen the Davis Cup finals happening in Malaga, I think last year the to 2022 was okay 2023 I think was quite a big success. You know, I think certainly with the Finnish crowd, the British crowd that probably the Northern European countries who want a bit of December sun, and it's only a two or three hour flight, they kind of brought the home tie feel to it. I don't know how close to you to it. You were in December. But how was your or opinions evolved around the Davis Cup since we last spoke?

Jonathan Overend  40:04

Yeah, I think I think again, it comes back to what we were saying about the the the elite closed shop of the tours potentially, and then the rest of the pathway. And I think if you're going to have the closed shop finals, you've got to make it good. And I agree progress was made, I think there's still a little way to go. But at least it's heading in the right direction. But for me, the Davis Cup is about the home away format. And I think that's what you can't lose. And what hasn't worked for me is in the group stage of getting nations into one location and expecting there to be atmosphere, expecting there to be big crowds expecting people to care that it just, I mean, I don't know how you get around it without returning to how it always used to be. But the hope the opportunity to host a tie in the Davis Cup is so important because it gives the lower nations an opportunity to get some revenues, we're not when not all lucky enough to be in British tennis and have a Wimbledon funded governing body. Quite so an important point wonderfully as it does the LTA if you're if you're the Mozambique Tennis Federation, I would wager that probably the vast majority of your income comes from maybe the one or two Davis Cup ties that you're able to host over the course of the year, you know what I mean? So I just think sometimes we enter these conversations, looking at it from a British perspective, or from a Spanish perspective, let's go to Malaga, let's go to Glasgow, whatever. Tennis is the second most global sport in the world behind Association football and the facts speak for themselves. And we have to look after all those territories when we have these conversations about such a such an international conversation as the Davis Cup. I know they do. I know at the ITF they care passionately about protecting all the nations making sure they're funded, making sure they have the opportunities. But I think I think there's work still to be done there on the future format of the competition.

Daniel Kiernan  42:07

I don't know exactly how it works, but I wouldn't have it every year. I think maybe yeah, maybe every other year, and you know, maybe, or maybe even kind of two times over five years and there's format in there around the qualifying that works. But I just I think we every yearness about it adds to the relentlessness and the congested pneus. of of our world and and we just can't be expecting players to continue giving so much because it because a Davis Cup tie. Technically, it certainly takes two weeks out. There's an argument that takes three, you know, but it definitely takes two out for anyone. That's certainly the singles players. And because of the preparation week because of them the event itself, and then you can't go and travel and compete and perform to the highest level the next week. And then you're looking at three ties a year. So you're looking at six weeks being given, you know, in an already very congested year. I just don't think it fits I really don't. So I if it wants to work in the classical sense, I think it needs to be all the a two year period or a longer window, which allows allow allows for that I don't have all the answers

Jonathan Overend  43:31

Great experiences from the Davis Cup though, aren't they? They are, I think back in here, obviously Murray's lob winning, winning it out in out against Belgium, before that the rise from the defeat to Lithuania in the Sports Hall of doom against the nation with only four ranked players. And that was the lowest of the lows and then to build from that to win Davis Cup. And in Seville when the doll played when Spain hosted the USA on clay that was an unbelievable experience to be there. So I think it is the sort of event that can bring fans, supporters, everybody invested in tennis, a lot of joy, a lot of passion and a lot of memories. So I think it's really, really important that we we protect it. And if there's one thing that comes out of this conversation, and I'm feeling it from yourself as well as the way I feel about the sport of tennis is I really hope that one day more voices are embraced in the sport that you know, people understand that there are a lot of people who care passionately deeply about this sport without necessarily having any vested interest at all. Amazingly there are a few people out there who have independence still, and it's really important that those voices are heard and I don't quite understand and I've never been able to understand why tennis closes its ears almost to outside voices, people who are from different backgrounds, different experiences different modes of operation because I think those people can can add an awful lot to the conversation when we're talking about the future of a sport such as tennis.

Daniel Kiernan  45:08

Well said it's the number, probably the number one thing I've taken in these 220 episodes of Control the Controllables is it's blown me away. Not that I didn't know this. But it's blown me away how many amazing people there are in this sport. Like completely blown me away. genuine, authentic, intelligent, great opinions. Just good good, good people. And in in any industry, of course, you've got you've got the bad, but I really don't think there's much of it in tennis. I think it's a beautiful sport that's managed to somehow create this kind of odd existence that's created incredibly passionate people that that want the best, right? What the best for the sport.

Jonathan Overend  45:56

Absolutely. And when you talk about passionate people, those people don't have to be don't have to be people who live and breath tennis 24 hours a day. And I think that that's the thing that I say because I find sometimes that the the sport frowns a little bit. If you've got something else going on. Do you know what I mean? It's like in my time away from tennis, I've done some I've done some football, I've done some boxing. I've done a lot of different sports. That shouldn't be negative. That should be okay. What What have you learned from from those sports? What can you bring from those sports, you know, the boss of the Sky Sports tennis coverage has worked in the Premier League coverage in Olympic coverage. And WSL coverage has an awful lot of experience that she can bring to benefit the sport of tennis, through her work with Sky Sports. Don't don't sort of frown at that and say, well, who's this outsider coming in and sort of taking over our stuff? Our little closed, closed shop, and I don't you know, I don't mean to come across as someone who who wants to criticize in any respect the people who live and breathe tennis? Of course not. I'm just saying that, that outside influence, I think can be more beneficial than it can be a detriment.

Daniel Kiernan  47:10

Sir Andy Murray, you touched on it there. I do have a that's also one point I just want to make Jonathan i i actually think the Davis Cup, the monumental Davis Cup effort. And then the monumental effort that was then made to get to world number one was arguably when his career threatening almost ending injury happened as well. You know, we talk about the mental side of it. But there's also the physical side, right, you know, the, the, when you've got these huge ambitions and aspirations and you're driving towards the top of the game, I think his history will tell us that period, that 12, 18 month period was kind of too much for Andy, you know, and his body his body didn't like it. And and what you said to me again, that the next quote, you said, after 2012, I thought Andy Murray looked as though he had accepted he might never win a Grand Slam. And we had Andy on as many people know, our 200th episode. And Andy said, exactly that, you know, that that mindset was, was freed up by that acceptance. And I think it's been much talked about now. And that then allowed almost him to go on and and just play and go on and win the Olympics that year with the US Open, win 2013 Wimbledon. And one of my favorite quotes that we've got on the podcast is is high standards, low expectations. You know, there's a difference between a standard and an expectation, you know, and I think the expectations can kill us and they can eat away at us. And I think they certainly did with Andy. Now, my, my, my question that I want to throw to you now Jonathan is Andy's at a different stage of his career. And, you know, he I commentated on a very difficult match to commentate on at the Australian Open, you know, where he just there was an I kept saying it, there's an air of resignation to this performance, which is, which is just not and Andy might lose and play badly. But he gets angry and he shouts at a few people and he snarls at a few people that you can feel that that maybe turns that around. Is he at the stage of his career where maybe there's an acceptance and he's lost and like nine first rounds and acceptance that maybe it is coming to the Twilight? Well, I think he knows it's coming to the Twilight period. But he might lose a little bit of that expectation again, that maybe we have one last hurrah from Andy Murray over the next 12 months.

Jonathan Overend  49:48

I think I think there was a really key line in in the tweet that he put out last week, which was my mind works differently. Yes, you know, just to say I'm why differently now there's no there's no point you are not on. Yeah, absolutely is, and he wouldn't have got to where he is, and done what he's done without that. And it's almost saying, Well, you can have your conversations about me. But you know, it's kind of all irrelevant because I'm gonna do my thing. And I'm gonna go away and try and change here and there and look at my serve and do this and do that. And one thing is for sure, he will give it everything through until the day that he decides and only he will decide that that that is the end. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if he if it gives it another go in terms of in terms of winning matches, I mean, look, it was only 12 months ago, he was winning those two unbelievable matches in Melbourne, wasn't it? And those those late night finishes when even even that was four years after the the operations in creating evil that incredible. So there's no there's no reason having done that a year ago that he can't do that now is I suppose the point that I would make, because that was four years on a metal hip. Now he's five years on a metal hip.

Daniel Kiernan  51:07

I honestly believe this about Andy, I think he was a few breakpoint conversions away from being a top 20, top 25 player in 2023. And I watched all of his matches. And I'm a massive Andy Murray fan. But the point I'm making is, I felt last year as we when we go back to 2012. There was a slight mental barrier that got in the way. And we had the De Minaur matches, we had Tsitsipas at Wimbledon, we there's many there's many throughout the year, where he did not execute on on those on those breakpoint conversions on those in those big moments. And I just wonder if he can almost and who am I to tell Andy Murray but almost call upon that mentality shift that he had in 2012 that we've spoken about that you spoke about then to be able to go and you know what? Screw it I'm doing the right things? Let's trust it, no expectations and flipping go for it. And I just wonder if that could maybe lose a little bit of that mental hurdle that potentially got in the way over the last 12, 18 months?

Jonathan Overend  52:25

I hope so I hope so for his sake, I really do. And you know, How different could last year have been had he had he beaten Tsitsipas, and would he have beaten Tsitsipas if not for the weather and the late finish in the roof on the first day? Possibly, you know, possibly and that could have that could have changed his season. And from that point, you know, he really struggled didn't and didn't register many wins at all. I hope what you say does come to fruition. And it sums up the grueling nature of competing in our sport, doesn't it?

Daniel Kiernan  52:59

The next comment I want to want to want to ask you about and I don't think maybe I made for TV for this exact reason. You said 'during the point you will be shutting up hopefully, which isn't always the case,' which is which is slightly different already on the bit I want to ask you all now is there's kind of a new wave of tennis commentaries. You know, we've kind of got current players obviously, we had Nick Kyrgios throughout Australia and open that they may be adding a more emotional and maybe less factual touch to their commentary. It's a little bit of a different style. what's your what's your take on take on on Nick's style, but maybe not so specific to Nick. That specific comment that you made four years ago?

Jonathan Overend  53:49

Yeah, I mean, I actually was quite surprised by Kyrgios in Australia I quite enjoyed it. And I wasn't I wasn't expecting him to A want to do it. as in sit through a four hour match and and be there ball one to final ball. Could I could I have listened to him on every match of the whole tournament? No. But he did he did bring excitement. That's that's undeniable. The art of commentary Dan is a is a real really curious thing and ask 100 people about it and you'll get 100 different answers about A what they want to hear and B how they think it should be done. Right. So if you get this huge sway the differing opinions, how can anyone sit there and say this is the right way? All you can do is bring yourself and what you believe in your your training, your experience, your passion, your emotion, your knowledge, bring all that to the table and try and be distinctive. That's all you can really do. Is there too much chat in tennis commentary? In my opinion, yes, there probably is. And I think it irritates people. And I think a lot of commentators need to listen back to what they do in the way that you've listened back to your podcast and want to improve from it. And I think sometimes, maybe we don't do that enough as broadcasters, you've got to review, you've got to listen back. And if you're irritated by yourself, Well, someone else is damn sure gonna have been irritated, as well. I think I think there is an art to commentary that I think a lot of people don't quite get. And a lot of it is down in my opinion. And again, this is just my personal opinion, a lot of it is down to the fact that you've got to have an appreciation of who's watching. Sure, you're gonna have some people watching every ball, have a four hour best of five set match. But I would hazard a guess that the majority of people who watch at some point are not watching every ball right? They've got other things going on. They've got their kids going out the door. So Australian Open classic example. Night session is always going on. Wake up first thing to do put on the TV so that the kids can watch whatever they want at the Australian Open before they go out to school. Now, are you telling me we're all sitting there? You know, cross armed the feet up at seven o'clock in the morning, watching this and no, of course, toasts ready the coffee's on there's a shirt that needs dining, we're in and out that there's a break point. Alright, we're gonna watch a little bit of that it's, it's Zverev folding against Medvedev, we're gonna be on to that as well. So so what I'm getting at here is as a commentator, sometimes you've got a different job than the we think. And to me that sometimes I felt this a lot when John Motson died. I was a huge John Motson fan, the football commentator for a number of reasons. One, I always heard his voice is a little bit of an alarm. I call it an alert in something I wrote Motty was great, but in commentary offering an alert. And by that I mean, hello, or, oh, it just just a few little things going on in the inflection of his voice, the tone that makes people realize something's up, or something's about to happen, that's a big thing for me in sports commentary, it's being aware of what might be about to happen. Really, really important. And that's where I think as a commentator, you've got to pitch it absolutely right. A to alert people who are ironing clothes and putting the toast on in the next door room come in here, come in here because something something something's about to happen, this match is about to turn here, because Zverev from five, four up in the third set tie break, can't see off Medvedev. So this match is about to turn, right. You've got to be on top of that moment. And almost everything else is a sidebar is news in brief. So it's it's it's fascinating. It fascinates me commentary, and I listened to a lot I've worked with a lot of really great commentators, I've been lucky enough to share them as colleagues. And I listened to a lot of young kids who want to be commentators now, and they're really, really talented. But I think there's a danger in just looking at tennis, abstract.com or creating your own stat sheet. And thinking that you can be a commentator, there's a huge difference. And there's also a big difference between just sidling into the booth and sitting down and having a chat with somebody for three hours. Commentary is not a chat. There's a real art to it. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that I'm anywhere near anywhere near the best in the profession, I'm incredibly lucky to have had a career in it. And I'm incredibly lucky to now have a new opportunity. And I will strive to improve every day and every time I sit in front of the microphone, but I do think there is a nuance to the job that some people don't quite appreciate. And that's why this opportunity is great, because I can talk about it and I can talk about what I love doing. And I can talk about areas of the job that maybe people don't see.

Daniel Kiernan  59:15

Now, Jonathan, you've been very humble and and I told you four years ago, that for me, you are the best in the business in tennis and and I stand by that four years later, you know, and and I always, of all of my experiences that I've had as a tennis player, tennis coach, Academy owner, and I've been fortunate to do a little bit of broadcasting, you know, being involved. Sitting next to you. Deliver the art of commentary is one of the most amazing experiences that I've ever had. And it's it's incredible how it's incredible how you did it and not just sitting next to you but also listening to you and how you've brought so many matches alive. So you certainly don't want

Jonathan Overend  1:00:04

I do want to interrupt you, because this strikes the heart of what I'm just saying, because that's, that's fine. And I really appreciate what you're saying, Dan, but you can tell me everything about how to hit a double handed backhand, you can tell me how to hit a volley at the net. I can't tell you that. So for some people, that knowledge that you have, that I don't have, is more valuable, right. And I completely get that completely get that. That's why this point that I'm making that there is no right or wrong way. It's about it's about everyone bringing what they can bring to the table is so important. And having that mix of voices is invaluable. And, you know, really appreciate what you're saying right there. That's That's very kind of you

Daniel Kiernan  1:00:52

Last one, Jonathan is, again, radio commentary has always been my first love. And and that, that my question on that you're, obviously we're not trying to look too far in the future. But where does radio commentary fit into your future? For the people that love hearing you? We don't get to hear you as much on TV. Because as you rightly say, during the point, you should be shutting up hopefully, you know, so. So is is this going to be something, does Sky have a radio channel? Is it something that is going to be part of your immediate future over the next 12 months? Where does radio sit in your future moving forward?

Jonathan Overend  1:01:39

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a slightly awkward one, isn't it? Because of the fact is, I'm now working for a TV broadcaster. So yeah, my mindset is definitely going to have to change. But is radio still my first love? Absolutely. Because it's, I've worked the vast majority of my professional life in radio, and that that idea that, you know, people can be in a hot air balloon and hanging on your every word from Centre Court is just irreplaceable. And that sort of direct connection if you like the radio offers below, I wouldn't try and bring a lot of what I've learned from my radio days, to the TV coverage, for sure. You know, trying to be evocative with storytelling with taking people behind the curtain. The personalities, absolutely, and the emotion, the emotion of the sport is so important to me. I'm not as interested in others, about what happened last time, somebody had a cross court backhand on a Wednesday with the wind blowing in a southwesterly direction. Alright, I'm not as interested. I'm vaguely interested. And if it's relevant at the time, I'll bring that into the, into the commentary, for sure. You know, I'm not a total dinosaur. But to me, sport is about what it does to our souls, how it makes us feel we want to sit there and live a match and be there at the beating heart of it. And as a commentator, your job is to bring that alive, and as I say, to alert people to the possibility of what might be about to happen. And that's why that's why those big moments are so special. And as a broadcaster, something like Murray, when it went, I mean, come on. Seventh of July 2013. It's so engrained in my mind. Unbelievable day, unbelievable day, because the moment gets closer and you think, right, this is it, this is it. This is what this is what everyone was hanging on your every word. And thankfully on TV less so because of you say the best commentator just shut up and let the pictures do the talking. So we'll try and be doing a bit of that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:03:51

And what about the future for radio itself within sport because it's one of my favorite movies. They talk about the baseball commentators and you can see people sit on their deck out in, in America listening to the baseball commentary and I spoke to you actually it was it was fun listening back because I spoke about my family holidays, you know, listening to the cricket when it's raining outside sitting in a in the car or sitting in the tent. You know, this is such a brings a big smile to my face when I speak about it, because what you said about touching the soul. It's so impactful and been so impactful for so many of us, you know, which maybe TV commentary hasn't probably had that impact on certainly myself, but in this world who's listening to the radio nowadays, because it's so accessible on TV. So what what is the future? I don't know that the ins and outs of the figures, but what is the future of tennis and sport on the radio?

Jonathan Overend  1:04:51

I would like to think that there is still a bright future for sport on the radio. I really hope and certainly I'm not aware that there is any any imminent threat to it. Because you're right. People still are in their cars, they're still on the beach, they're still in their air balloons. They want to know what's going on. Some people prefer to listen to matches on the radio than they do watch on the TV. You know, there are people out there. And, you know, I really hope that radio lives and lives and lives. And isn't it interesting, actually, that the great strides that the media industry has made in the last decade has been in the world of audio, podcasting, this what you're listening to right now Control the Controllables with Daniel Kiernan, you know, it's incredible, isn't it that our industry, the audio industry, should enjoy such a renaissance in this sort of vehicle of podcasting that no one really tapped into before when they actually could have done. Anyone could have recorded a half hour conversation and stuck it on MySpace, or on SoundCloud or on any of these long defunct platforms, but they didn't. Until David Law invented podcasting in about 2005. All right. But anyway, so actually, that's what, enthuses me that, you know, we talked about the future of radio, I think about the future of audio. And actually, audio is in a really strong place, because now you've got this vehicle for audio, which has just exploded much further than I ever imagined when I did my first podcast in about 2007. So yes, it's amazing. I think the future's bright.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:34

Are you ready for our quick fire round? My first question, I've been waiting to ask this for a long time. Do you have your number one record yet?

Jonathan Overend  1:06:46

No. So this goes back to I think if I'm right, you I probably told you what it said on my local radio biography.

Daniel Kiernan  1:06:55

Your ambitions

Jonathan Overend  1:06:56

Two ambitions. My ambition was to commentate on a Wimbledon tennis final and compose a number one record. I'm still composing music. But I'm not aiming for the top of the pop charts. But I do I write a lot of music. So the production company I run, we make sort of documentaries. And I compose a lot of the music for that. Which is fun. Nicky Campbell does too, keen musician and Nicky Campbell writes a lot of music for his podcast as well. So it keeps me off the stream.

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:26

I'm not interested in that. Jonathan, you'd come back to me when you've got your number one record. Do you know what I mean? I'm a high achiever. Come on, you've got to achieve.

Jonathan Overend  1:07:33

Do you a new theme tune? I'm not. I love your podcast, but I hate the theme tune

Daniel Kiernan  1:07:40

Oh do you? Well there's a there's a there's a story behind it. Because it's it's actually a SotoTennis player that did it that so so that's again, we talked about the feel and the soul of being a bit closer, close to home. So everything has been very organically done throughout the podcast and linked linked to the family that we call Team Soto. So I won't tell him and maybe he doesn't know. So I don't want him to get upset, but personal preference and all that. If you Hey, Jonathan, I'm open to you presenting something to me. You know, now's the time.

Jonathan Overend  1:08:16

I know that absolutely. Stick with it all the way out. So it's all about the brand, Dan all about the brand.

Daniel Kiernan  1:08:21

So who's going to be the year end world number one so the men's and women's tour in 2024?

Jonathan Overend  1:08:30

I'll go Novak Djokovic and Aryna Sabalenka. Sabalenka for me has the opportunity now to not exactly mop up but I think the consumer says don't see it but she's shown it at the Grand Slams hasn't she What is it semifinals are better at the last six now. Winning winning two, final of another set in a breakup at Wimbledon as well in her semi you she she's there every time. And when you look at the active players with Grand Slam titles. If you're still if you still got Venus as an active player, which of course you should. She's got seven but Sabalenka for me is now the one who I feel so got the potential to get to double digits. And the way she's playing she could do that quickly.

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:16

French Open champions men's and women's singles this year. Could it be Rafael Nadal

Jonathan Overend  1:09:23

Well I mean Nadalis going to be very interesting to follow Isn't it because he started off so well out in Oz and and then it didn't happen. So I don't know. What do you think?

Daniel Kiernan  1:09:36

I think it's I think he's is he's gonna throw the kitchen sink at it. And I think I saw enough in Australia. From a tennis perspective. It is abnormal, the level he was playing at when he has not competed for 12 months. That doesn't happen. You don't come back and and compete to that level, okay, two and a half matches, but he showed me enough in those two and a half matches to say his level is there. I was really impressed, the question mark is does his body hold up? You know and but I think he knows his body well enough that he is going to do everything he can to have his body ready to be able to last seven matches if needed at Roland Garros. And he has a little extra five 10% Right. You know someone sees him at the other end of the court. I think it would be a dream story and I love stories.

Jonathan Overend  1:10:36

Wouldn't it and I've I've always said if if Rafa is in the draw at Roland Garros, how can you not make him favorite? Given his record but this would this would be the first year when logic would would go against that. But as you say these these all time greats have a long long history of defying all logic so any anything is possible but I'll go I'll go Novak to win the men's and I mean.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:06

Got to go Sabalenka after what you said surely?

Jonathan Overend  1:11:10

I'll go Sabalenka for Wimbledon. I'll I'll go a bit boring to go for Swiatek.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:16

She's the one to beat.

Jonathan Overend  1:11:18

I do think Osaka has has got it in her I think and I think she this new mindset I think will keep making adjustments to her game. And I know disappointing defeat him in Melbourne. In the end she she was outplayed and out-thought on the court, but I think she will learn a lot from that. And will switch things up for future slams. So I think rule out Osaka this year, at your peril at the at the slams.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:44

Just not on a clay court.

Jonathan Overend  1:11:46

Definitely Oh no, not on a claycourt I'll go Andreeva for the French.

Daniel Kiernan  1:11:50

That could be a great call. She has she has a bright, bright future. What's the number one thing that people will take from the new Sky Sports Tennis Channel,

Jonathan Overend  1:12:02

They will take a lot of it. That's gonna be a lot of it. Well, they estimate about 4000 matches over the course of the year for more than more than 80 tournaments. So the most important thing is people know that from the 11th of February, there is a dedicated Tennis Channel in Great Britain for the very first time Sky Sports tennis, and is going to be there round the clock. And you know, we just can't wait to welcome everybody from those who will be watching tennis full time, day in day out what they do with their day jobs. I've got no idea some of these people want tears around the clouds. You have a day job if you do it, you surely can't do it very well. If you do, congratulations because you're unbelievable at multitasking. But we'll also be getting people who love their Premier League football and maybe you've only ever watched Premier League football. Now tennis is getting showcased with ad breaks, for example, trailers for Doha at half time in the Premier League. You know, that's a that's a big deal. Right? That's a big deal. For tennis to get that sort of exposure to say to the football fans, right? There's, there's 3 million of you watching here. There might have only been 100,000 watching the stream from Abu Dhabi on the tennis but there's 3 million of you watching this Premier League football match. Let's get some of you along the next tennis tournament. How can that not be good news for tennis?

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:23

The Elite Premier Tour or not?

Jonathan Overend  1:13:24

No, no, let's let's invest in all the good things about tennis and the elite do very well out of the sport already.

Daniel Kiernan  1:13:38

Manifestation manifestation Jonathan, you're gonna have a world number one, you're gonna you're gonna have a record number one, what's the name of it?

Jonathan Overend  1:13:47

Well, I wrote it. I wrote it in 1999 I still believe it's a number one record is called sitting on top of the world. So it's a song which could be used as you know on a on a SkySports montage. As as Raducanu spectacularly wins the Doha title in a week's time, play that song, it would be the perfect accompaniment. And I've got it sealed for copyright purposes in a in an envelope in my loft, and it's been sealed for 25 years, just in case. And this is my this is my dream down my dream legal moment in life because I'm at the end of the day music weird isn't it? You've got eight notes in a bar, you've only got a certain number of chord progressions, or topics for a song, one day, a song will be written that is completely identical to a song that's been written before. Right? That's my logic. So my hope is one day someone writes this song passes it off on their own and I can sail away into the sunset, having sued them thanks to my sealed envelope in the loft.

Daniel Kiernan  1:14:49

And who should our next guest be on Control the Controllables

Jonathan Overend  1:14:53

So, I would love so I always whenever I listened to your chats, I always get to the end. Because I think it's really important. I think, you know, you put a lot of preparation into these conversations and it shows. And I think it's kind of a bit sort of bit rude. I think if you dip out midway through before, so I always hear you're getting to the end of these conversations of asking this question. And for me, I'd I'd love. So we've spoken a lot about the influence of outside voices to benefit the sport of tennis. Rather than see that as some sort of hindrance or interference, I'd love to hear a conversation between you and a tennis fan, who doesn't work in tennis, or a tennis or a sports executive, or an entertainment executive, who loves tennis, but who doesn't work and has never worked in tennis, I'd love to hear that outside perspective, some of these questions that you're asking me that I'm sort of like a little sort of like on the fence about, because I can see both sides of the argument, I can see vested interests, and I can see if you kill off doubles, then then Dan and Dan's friends, you know, are basically out of out of jobs. So I'd love to get that outside perspective, ask them the same questions, see what they say. Because I think the sport might be able to learn a lot from that.

Daniel Kiernan  1:16:14

Well if anyone jumps to mind, I'll certainly have a brain conversation, then then send it over. But Jonathan, you as always are an absolute star. And and your time is usually appreciated your your honesty, even more so. And thank you for for sharing your story. But also thank you for letting us know a little bit more about what is an exciting thing for us all to look forward to. And you know, like you said, tennis is fighting against so many things. And the fact that it is now on this huge platform that let's be honest, a lot of people have access to because they love Premier League football that has been the pull for many, many, many years. And now to be able to just press the Up channel two or three channels and have all of this unlimited tennis has to be a good thing for our sport. So wishing you and everyone the very best of luck with with the launch this weekend of the channel. And certainly I will be watching and watching very, very closely as I do wherever I can find tennis. So thank you, Jonathan.

Jonathan Overend  1:16:30

Thanks, Dan. Keep up the good work.

Daniel Kiernan  1:17:08

Well, I just spoke there for two hours with Jonathan over and and it probably wasn't an easy edit for Vicki who is beside me. And we've had to take a bit of a chunk out, haven't we? So I think we might have another another episode coming to you in the next few weeks.

Victoria Kiernan  1:17:42

It's impossible for me to say that Jonathan Overend is a difficult edit. I said last time he was on his voice is like silk. And he's a bit like you he's a bit you know, perfect speaker one take. There's no Amin, there's no ours, there's no mistakes. He's just speaks beautifully. But boy, you too can talk to ours. I was like, we can't put it out as a full episode like this.

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:04

No, it's almost Valentine's Day. But we are rather close here with this. One microphone. You know, you might have heard, not only does Jonathan have by far the superior voice to me, he also had by far, the superior microphone. And since I've come back from Australia, we've learned that my ever steady microphone over the last few years just hasn't been working. And I've been getting the blame for this that I haven't been turning it on properly. So I am actually pleased tonight as we're bringing this to you. We've worked out that we think that we think it might be broken. So me and Vicki here February 11. It's almost Valentine's Day stood right next to each other doing this

Victoria Kiernan  1:18:47

We used to do this when we first started the show. So it's poignant that we've got Jonathan on, because this is how we were doing it back then as well.

Daniel Kiernan  1:18:55

And a lot for us to I guess jump into and dissect. But we already did speak for so much. So just very quickly, if we go through a few things. First thing I want to say is hope Jonathan's all right. You know, he's it sounds like you know, he's had a he's had a challenging time. And I think it's so brave of him to be able to share that with us. And I'm sure now going into that life again, that life of relentlessness that we talked about the tennis does bring, you know, and I'm sure now he knows himself much better. And anybody that's in the tennis world that is experiencing those same things, you know, whether you're a tennis coach or a parent or a player, it is make sure you are taking time for yourself. And I think that message came through loud and clear from Jonathan.

Victoria Kiernan  1:19:46

It did alongside all the messages he said actually from me editing him and listening to his voice all weekend. We've also been seeing his face all over social media, Sky Sports have obviously done a good job promoting The launch of the new channel, he's done a bit of a photo shoot with Tim Henman, Laura Robson and Gigi Salmon who are all going to be working during the Coventry on Sky Sports. What do you think then? I mean, good thing for tennis fans a bad thing for tennis fans. I'm really excited.

Daniel Kiernan  1:20:20

I think the first thing actually, I hope you don't have COVID By the way, because this we're so close this this microphone. This microphone is definitely passing it on. Sorry. But yeah, bringing it back to that. Of course, it's great. Right. I think it's anything that is showcasing tennis and I guess the jury's out the the jury's out on the ease of watching matches. I guess having having Sky you have the multicourt which is brilliant. The jury's out, whether it's going to be showing a range of matches, singles, doubles, or different events. The jury's out for me on how much they're going to bring tennis alive to the to the next generation, you know how you bring them the personalities out. I think that's one thing to have matches on, which is, which is fantastic. But I'm excited to see what content and creativity that they that they have with this, you know, and I think even even some of the bits I saw I saw Laura Robson and Tim Henman doing various little games to get the excitement going. As a as a Geordie. I'd like to hear a few more localized voices. You know, I'm not not sure that we do a great job in British tennis of actually showcasing the whole country. That would be certainly something bring in a few more personalities out there as well. But certainly to have have this platform that is there 24/7. It has it has to be a good thing. And I think my last thing to say Vicki on that is and Jonathan said this, and it definitely got me thinking the fact that all those millions of people are watching Premier League football at the weekends, and then there's an advert for tennis. Now the cynic in me says well nobody watches adverts anymore. You know, however, it has popped up on my social media stream today that there is some adverts with Jamie Carragher Naser Hussein from the cricket team and there's tennis balls flying around and they're they're saying a few words about the Tennis Channel. And I think that reach that's out there now on that platform has to be a good thing.

Victoria Kiernan  1:22:44

What was really cool today for me, you know, it's the weekend the football's on in our house. And I was making the lunch and on my phone popped up on Sky Sports, it's always popping up the live football score, well rather rugby over the weekend. And then it came up with a reminder reminder for me, but a message saying you know, WTA event and Doha is on you know, go head now to the jacket, remember the exact wording, but head now to you know, Sky Sports tennis channel to watch and I was like, Oh, this is so cool. I never get these messages on the weekend on my on my phone.

Daniel Kiernan  1:23:20

But there is also I guess the the counter to that there's a Sky Sports cricket channel, there's a Sky Sports F1 channel, there's a Sky Sports, various sport channels. I don't go to that to watch on this. either. I don't just randomly go and watch cricket, or randomly go and watch golf. If I want to watch a big event, then I will, you know so. That's why I go back to the content, the creativity, the creation of personalities, bringing them alive, the creation of rivalries, you know, these are the things we need to do in our sport. And it's going to be really interesting how it comes through. And, and the one thing I also have to say, Vicki tennis, for it to be a sport that truly is out there and available to everybody. There has to be there has to be a way of us, us watching the sport and playing the sport in a more affordable price. You know, and I think this is a great stepping stone. This is a great possibility. But I still want to beat that drum that we've got to get it into people's homes. Obviously Wimbledon does that for two weeks a year in the UK. You know, Rohan pup has just become world number one he said you can't watch a match in India without it being on some form of cable TV. We've got to be able to get it into people's homes. And we've also got to make it more accessible for people to play tennis and that is a drum that we also need to keep beating on and I hope that through this channel that is also a message that is sent a lot along the hill along the way. And over to you, Mr. Henman. Miss Robson, Miss Salmon and Mr. Overend to continue getting those messages out there as well.

Victoria Kiernan  1:25:13

Well it's got me I'm, I'm excited. I'm excited to watch. I was really excited. Like I said, when it came up on my phone today, that would have sent me It sent me straight to television to put it on. So yeah, let's let's see how it goes. Let's see how they get on. I mean, there was one question I can't believe you didn't ask Jonathan. Paul,

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:31

you've always he always first got

Victoria Kiernan  1:25:33

something. He said he's written a song, which he thinks is a number one record. And you didn't ask him if he sings.

Daniel Kiernan  1:25:44

Jonathan can't ask all the questions, because Jonathan is going to come on a third time he's written

Victoria Kiernan  1:25:49

he's written a song and he has the most beautiful voice. So we that kind of you have to imagine that he has got a beautiful singing voice as well to go with that number one record. It's a question for the next time he comes on.

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:01

I will save that question. And many more than I still have for you, Jonathan

Victoria Kiernan  1:26:07

In 2028. In another four years.

Daniel Kiernan  1:26:10

I'm not waiting so long next time. But you are brilliant. Jonathan, you always are. And I am so pleased that Jonathan Overend is going to be on our screens that I say it, but I can't say this enough about him. It's the voice of tennis for me. He's taken me through so many amazing tennis matches and moments that I can pinpoint in my life. And honestly, it's a big, big privilege and honor always to speak to Jonathan so. So thank you.

Victoria Kiernan  1:26:39

Well we can't go without saying a really big thank you. To those of you that voted for us at the Sports Podcast Awards. So excited because for the third year in a row, we won Best Tennisp odcast. And yeah, and racket tennis and rackets this year, and it was much I think we've said before, it was a really tough category this year. There's some amazing, amazing tennis and racquet podcasts. So yeah, we just wanted to say a massive thank you if you voted, massive thank you to listen for listening to the podcast this past year. And a big big thank you as well. To guests like Jonathan for coming on in the past year and giving up their time to share their stories share their expertise with us. As you will have heard Dan say many times he's set the podcast up to educate, entertain and energize the tennis community and without the guests that we have on we just couldn't do that. So a massive thank you to them.

Daniel Kiernan  1:27:38

And without all of those votes, Vicki wouldn't have been able to celebrate partying hard like she has done over the last week. You were lucky to get her on today. Been drinking champagne, popping the bottles and celebrating for the last for the last week. But guys, lots more to come. And actually some really exciting news on the horizon. Watch this space. But until next time, I'm Dan Kiernan and we are Control the Controllables